Turret board material...

[FunkyE9th]

Hello,

In the past, I just ordered pre-cut boards. Thinking of buying the sheets to save some money. Is this the right material to get?

Grade G-10/FR4 Garolite. I saw this at http://www.mcmaster.com,
Part Number: 8667K243.

Couldn't find eyelets for it though at mcmaster.

Thanks!

[Phil_S]

That seems like the right stuff. Any G10 material ought to do it.

Are you familiar with the health hazards of cutting this stuff? It is imperative that you NOT BREATHE the dust created by cutting or drilling. If you do not have a proper vac system on your saw, then you must do this outside and wear a mask + eye protection. Drilling just a few holes is a bit less of an issue, as you can run the drill slowly and keep particles from flying. Drilling lots of holes has the same problem as cutting.

Also, you will need plenty of carbide cutting tools. This stuff dulls blades and bits very quickly. Add the cost of the eyelet or turret tools, and these are best done with a drill press. If you have a drill press, you still need the vacuum running. Once you add this to the cost of the material, the price you are paying for individual boards won't look so expensive.

Please be careful here. Consider what's penny wise and pound foolish. Once you suck that stuff into your lungs, it never, never, ever, comes out. It just stays in there, interfering with your ability to breathe, and eventually leads to cancer. The Material Safety Data Sheets you'll find don't quite go this far, so please excuse me if you think I'm an alarmist. I think this is one thing best left done by someone else.

Like I said before, a few mounting holes drilled carefully should not present a problem, but I wouldn't go for more than that.

[FunkyE9th]

Thanks for the health warning Phil. Looks like I need to get a mask/respirator too. Been meaning to get one. Doing some cabinet work also lately and the cutting and sanding really calls for it too.

[skyboltone]

That seems like the right stuff. Any G10 material ought to do it.

Are you familiar with the health hazards of cutting this stuff? It is imperative that you NOT BREATHE the dust created by cutting or drilling. If you do not have a proper vac system on your saw, then you must do this outside and wear a mask + eye protection. Drilling just a few holes is a bit less of an issue, as you can run the drill slowly and keep particles from flying. Drilling lots of holes has the same problem as cutting.

Also, you will need plenty of carbide cutting tools. This stuff dulls blades and bits very quickly. Add the cost of the eyelet or turret tools, and these are best done with a drill press. If you have a drill press, you still need the vacuum running. Once you add this to the cost of the material, the price you are paying for individual boards won't look so expensive.

Please be careful here. Consider what's penny wise and pound foolish. Once you suck that stuff into your lungs, it never, never, ever, comes out. It just stays in there, interfering with your ability to breathe, and eventually leads to cancer. The Material Safety Data Sheets you'll find don't quite go this far, so please excuse me if you think I'm an alarmist. I think this is one thing best left done by someone else.

Like I said before, a few mounting holes drilled carefully should not present a problem, but I wouldn't go for more than that.

I just sent for the MSDS sheets on the one you are proposing and the one I use 8491K15. This one 8474K124, is the one I'll be switching to when my current supply runs out.

Somehow, I don't think this is like working with isocyanates or asbestos. There is just too much of it in the industry for these elaborate precautions. Unless the epoxy binder adds to the glass problem it should be no worse than normal "pink panther" insulation. If fiberglass insulation were that dangerous probably 80% of the folks working in the construction industry would be dead before they turned 30.

I'll report back.
Dan

[Structo]

I've worked in the construction industry for over 30 years.

I think that the fiberglass dust can be almost as bad as asbestos.

Think about it, the dust is short pieces of glass, that the lungs will be unable to expel.

I don't have any studies to quote at this moment but I remember years ago when I worked at a mobile home factory. When the sun would shine through the big overhead doors, the air was full of sparkly things floating in the air. My lungs would feel like they were on fire sometimes from breathing that crap.

Sawdust has been shown to be just as bad if inhaled over the years.

I've been around quite a bit of asbestos when doing remodeling and I've probably damaged my lungs in the process. Trouble is that kind of stuff takes years before you notice the damage. Asbestos can wait 30 years before you develop symptoms.

I think the best policy is to wear a dust mask or respirator whenever dealing with any particulate matter.

[Phil_S]

Somehow, I don't think this is like working with isocyanates or asbestos... the folks working in the construction industry would be dead before they turned 30.

I'll report back.
Dan

I have heard from others the stuff is dangerous. A quick on-line search did not turn up a proper data sheet, but I did see warnings about potential lung problems. I'm interested in what you find out.

Anyhow, my main point is that, properly handled and properly protected, the material is likely to be OK to work with. If you just fire up the saw/drillpress in your garage or basement without proper protection, it's not a good idea to work with the stuff.

What I took away from the original post is that money can be saved by buying a sheet of G10 and cutting it yourself. After you factor in tools and safety measures, I suspect it's not so for the average hobby level shop.

OTOH, I've got a friend who recently outfitted his garage-shop with a professional grade dust collection system. That would be the place to take a sheet of G10 if I had one to cut.

[billyz]

Has anyone ever used a wet tile saw with a diamond blade to cut G10 boards?

I have a nice M&K gathering dust and thought about trying it. The water would eliminate the dust and the diamond blade should have no problem with the Glass Epoxy.

What do you think?

[Structo]

I believe someone did mention using a wet saw to cut the stuff before but I have no idea who it was. It was quite a while ago.

[drhulsey]

Has anyone ever used a wet tile saw with a diamond blade to cut G10 boards?

Yes, that has been discussed. The person who used it said that it eliminated dust as a problem. The diamond blade should hold up well cutting G10.

[drhulsey]

... This one 8474K124, is the one I'll be switching to when my current supply runs out...

What do you like better about the Garolite LE?

[skyboltone]

... This one 8474K124, is the one I'll be switching to when my current supply runs out...

What do you like better about the Garolite LE?

It is cotton fibre and Bakelite, not fibreglass and epoxy. It's mil spec and said to be less susceptible to moisture absorption than the CE.

I did get the MSDS sheets for both the G10-FR4 and the CE and I'll post them to tinypic tomorrow. The G10* is listed as a lung hazard under conditions of continuous use when precautions are not taken (like Phil said) but is in no case carcinogenic.

The CE basically said don't smoke it. I'm serious, vapors from burning can be harmful. Remove worker to fresh air. I've been using the CE (like Leo) but have heard that they will suck up moisture under some conditions and cause problems. Maybe that's why all those old Tweed amps sound so good? Some problem.

I like the tile saw solution though, I remember when that went around. Harbor Freight has them cheap. I stack drill my boards on an ordinary drill press in full sunlight through the open door of my workshop and I think I'd have to rig up some kind of bong to inhale the dust from drilling. Sawing is an entirely different matter. What few times I've sawn G10* I have itched like mad the rest of the day. I think I'll stick to the LE.

[FunkyE9th]

Looking at the McMaster site...I didn't realize there were so many types of garolite. There's a grade XX. Description says less moisture absorption than CE or LE. Did you check that one out? Paper-based laminate and phenolic resin.

[Ron Worley]

According to Dana (UR12), the real board material is FR4 XXX grade Phenolic versus the G-10, which is essentially fiberglass based.

He said that it has fibers that make the drilled holes "messy" (if you are making board like the originals with a matrix of holes drilled into it).

Ron

[skyboltone]

Looking at the McMaster site...I didn't realize there were so many types of garolite. There's a grade XX. Description says less moisture absorption than CE or LE. Did you check that one out? Paper-based laminate and phenolic resin.

I saw that XX but didn't investigate. I shall.

[drhulsey]

... The CE basically said don't smoke it...

Maybe we should listen to some Hendrix and smoke some CE