Great Strat tone but way overdriven LP tone....Express poll

[rooster]

Do all of you here think that the Express is a 'one size fits all' kind of amp? Or do you find that the same Express that works great with a Strat is also too easily overdriven with a LP and vice versa? I am just now looking at this after having built a few Expresses.

I hope you know what I am talking about here, but I might be the only one. The LP sounds killer when you pot it down - into an Express that sound fantastic with a Strat - but when you dime the LP, things just get too crazy for my tastes. Does this ring a bell with any of you?

Thanks, I am all ears.

[cliffchappell]

Do all of you here think that the Express is a 'one size fits all' kind of amp? Or do you find that the same Express that works great with a Strat is also too easily overdriven with a LP and vice versa? I am just now looking at this after having built a few Expresses.

I hope you know what I am talking about here, but I might be the only one. The LP sounds killer when you pot it down - into an Express that sound fantastic with a Strat - but when you dime the LP, things just get too crazy for my tastes. Does this ring a bell with any of you?

Thanks, I am all ears.

I, for one, would agree with that. And I'd say that the more recent the LP, the worse the problem is. The HB's in most LP's are just too hot for a Express built to the A1A specs (that's only my personal tastes).

You can adjust the circuit a bit to allow for the hotter pickups, but then it doesn't sound so good with a Strat.

You could also swap the second preamp tube out for a 12AY7, but that will still also affect how the amp sounds with a Strat.

Or, you could get a set of *low* output HB's and put them in the LP. That's the route I went with the guitar I have (it's a McNaught Phoenix, not an LP)

[Rob S]

I am really pleased to see this topic because I was feeling rather guilty about raving to Ron W about how impressed I was with my Express (Carol) when used with Single Coils.

I think that everyone is right thus far in suggesting that Low Output Humbuckers are the answer? I have a pair that are even lower output than an original PAF would be and that Pickup sounds magical with the Express, but to my ears, when a Mate tried it with Burstbuckers it was awful. But then it is all so subjective? I tend to like slightly cleaner sounds and this is where the Express has amazed me time and time again. I think it was Glen who commented about "From Clean to Scream" and THAT is where I find a Single Coil Guitar excels.

[fishy]

Intersting post.

Would a switchable split load plate do anything to help here?

Pete

[pureoldsound]

I was always under the impression that the Express was meant to be a lead amp. I've seen some people being able to tame it with their pick attack and volume control using both LPs and Strats. But never the less I think using the right tool for the right job, IMHO, is the way to go. If you want less over the top gain, not so much in your face kind off thing, then the best way to go will be a Liverpool.

Now good suggestions so far which will be something I’ll do myself if I had the same problem, change V1 with a tube that has less gain and see what happens. I’ve also tried a 5751 and it seems to calm down the aggressiveness. Now the question is, how much would the amp change by swapping a 12AX7 for other tubes? After all the amp was designed around 12AX7s . But if you are pleased with the results then you are all set.

FWIW, I also agree that the amp can be all in your face, and over the top.

Good solution would be building a Liverpool, use that for stuff that does not need to be so aggressive and use an A/B box to switch to the Express for lead work.....

[korngold]

Or, you could get a set of *low* output HB's and put them in the LP. That's the route I went with the guitar I have (it's a McNaught Phoenix, not an LP)

This would be my suggestion. I don't have my express up & running (yet), but this will be my plan of attack if the pickups in my LPs don't sound good into the express. I will say that I've heard a guy on this board play a fairly recent LP into a Liverpool clone, and his sound is nothing short of amazing.

Also, if you have an Express, depending upon the pickups you have that are too hot, you may want to try wiring them to a switch to go between parallel and series. Parallel will give you a cleaner, more single-coil like sound but still in humbucking mode. Unfortunately, the stock pickups on (Gibson) LPs are not 4 conductor, so this would only apply to those with circuit-board Gibson pickups (80's) and aftermarket.

[Rob S]

Good solution would be building a Liverpool, use that for stuff that does not need to be so aggressive and use an A/B box to switch to the Express for lead work.....

Ironically enough..... This is exactly what I originally had in mind.
My Matamp would handle all Warm Cleans and the Express would come in for all the flashbang stuff....... only in my case that should read "attempted" flash bang stuff.

BUT.... when fooling around with the Express alone..... Well let's just say that I tend to be plugged into that rather more these days.

[rawnster]

This is an interesting topic. While I've documented some recent bugs with my express build, I've plugged in a LP standard, Gretsch Rev (TV Jones Classics), and Suhr Classic T. They all really do sound amazing. In particular, I didn't really notice the LP overdriving amp too much at all. In fact, it put a huge smile on my face. There are a couple other forum members who's heard this amp with the LP. No complaints at all. I'm finding that the express has so much gain on tap early on that I can find a sweet spot with the volume knob for all of my guitars, all the while putting out about the dbs. I guess I should mention that I don't play the amp dimed. Usually I've got it no higher than around 11 oclock.

...but who knows, I'm just a novice at this.

[rooster]

Thanks all of you for checking in, and it is good to know that I am not alone in this. I should also say that I have an AC30 that I built (with the top boost channel) and it performs equally well with with SCs and HBs - (which really speaks to the Rocket/Liverpool thing, eh?) And, while I haven't really thought about going way lighter in the wind department, my PAF clones are all about 8K, with the exception of a Classic Plus @8.6. I don't run any 'fat' or muffly sounding pickups, that's my way...

So the Express amp, that's where I'm at although I am planning on building a Rocket - especially after reading the postings from RJ's friend, a very kind sharing soul who actually spent some time with KF. Great insight and info! But he's also a Rocket guy, let's not forget, who had a couple of Expresses and walked away.

So, here's another twist to my tale. I loaned my TW and my AC30 out to a friend and potential customer of an Express. BTW, he is HB guy and a novice gtr player in so many ways but learning, (sorry John, trying to paint a picture here! Think Angus Young devotee). After a few days, he brought my cab and the two heads back... and said he realized that the Express was a great amp, but the top boost channel of the AC30 was the Bomb for him. I was kinda surprised because a lot of other player friends have had the same shootout and chosen the TW. Ah, but they were more experienced players. He said the 'TW let me hear every mistake and the AC30 didn't." When he said this I realized he had a valid point, newbee gtr player or not - the Express is for a cat who can play well, I think. Would you all agree? I mean you can pedal it up and run the amp at low volume, but to just plug and play, as Glen does, you need to work the Express. And this still doesn't resolve the Strat vs. LP thing somehow, although, as I said, Glen is making it work very well.

Anyway, cut to the chase, I kind of came up with a fix, and it was pretty simple, actually. whether it appeals to anyone else, that remains to be seen. I will take some pics and get back to you later today. I was really curious if anybody else had come up with something that involved the amp circuit. It seems you guys have simply run down the pickup fix, clever fellows, but I am done on pickup swapping on this end. I am very satisfied that my gtrs are working well. ...Which is not to say I couldn't always play gtr a whole lot better.

[Rob S]

Just so that there is NO misunderstanding my original comments.... I too thoroughly enjoy those "Silly Grin" moments when I have either a Les Paul or some other Humbucker Guitar plugged in. But, because I am an Old Fart, my style has always been rather more rooted in the Late 60's early 70's Guitar Sounds, hence I tend to be called a Clean Player by friends whom are more into Mega Drive etc.

I LIKE what the Express does with Hummers, but PREFER what it does with Single Coils...... especially P90s!!!!

Hope that clears it up a bit? I realised that I hadn't really explained myself clearly on this, but Ron W will explain that I am struggling slightly with the after effects of a pretty comprehensive Chemical Cosh session earlier this week, so posts might be pretty much gibberish at the moment.

[geetarpicker]

I somewhat agree I prefer a Strat over a Les Paul with the wreck for overall usage and versatility. But for lead I'd even then lean towards the Les Paul side. It's also what kind of band one is playing in. For heavy rock I could see wearing the LP all night, but probably not in a more blues or pop based gig.

But for me it's more of an EQ thing than a gain thing. I love the sustain of the Les Paul into the wreck, and for controlled feedback it's the BEST where on a strat you have to fight it a bit for control. However the Express is quite mid heavy and so is the Paul which though it helps sustain it can make for a less versatile tone. The strat has more of a mid scoop which works well with the wrecks mids. On a gain issue with the Les Paul the biggest deal for me is proper pots in the guitar. My original burst excels there with the original Centralabs. In my new historic I tried some after market pots which were way better than the stock ones. Though in time I actually put some original old Centralabs for my historic too. It's the only part changes on the guitar, other than caps and 50s wiring. Oh, that's another thing on the Les Paul when you have 50s wiring the tone control actually first pull some mids when you turn them, then as you back down further you get hi cut too. This mid cut really does help the a Les Paul work with the wreck better than you would expect when you turn BOTH the volume and tones down some. You can see me do this in my "Can You Hear It Ring?" amp/guitar demo video. Also with 50s wiring the tone knob also pulls back some extra volume, which also helps to get the guitar backed off even further.

So, even though I agree a strat works possibly a little better with the wreck versatility wise I do really love the Les Paul with the wreck for lead work. The pickups in my LPs (new and old) are both around 8k kind of typical for PAFs both old and new.

[rooster]

Wow Glen, the things I learn from your posts! Very good to know about the differnces in your LP.

Here is the pic, not great lighting but you get the idea. It is two values hung on a DPDT switch. There is enough room to place it just in front of where the cap normally sits. Oh, yes, this is the third stage coupling cap, the typical .002 uf cap. I have switched to the Sozo .002 type, BTW, and the other cappage is a Mallory .001 in parallel with a silver mica 250pf cap. Yes, the normal value, .002 is for the Strat, the .00125 is for the LP.

I know this may seem like an odd way to switch the values into the circuit - and that there is a way to have the .00125 value in place and just stack another .000750 onto it for the .002 value - but I did it this way because the silver mica adds a bit more jangle to the LP that the Strat doesn't really need. Also of note, maybe .00125 is too light for some, you could try .0015, for example. I did run with this for a while, but finally I thought it wasn't cutting the bass in the HBS enough.

The switch sits between V1 and V2 creates no noise in my circuit, and can be engaged with the amp running with no popping as you make the switch. I am going to run with this because it works very well for me and my guitars. With the stock value, my HBs sound a bit too wooley for my tastes.

Anyway, this works very well for me and actually allows me to switch from Strats to LPs without too much work. As Glenn points out, the HBs are already midrangy, but I tend to turn the mids up pretty high as I switch to the LP thing. I do this because the switch to .00125 takes a fair amount of midrange out of the signal. Yes, bass too, which is good for my tastes, but the amp needs a boost in the tone controls to get the gain up after the switch is made. Make sense? This mid boost at the pot tends to make things better, more like I like a HB to sound.

Okay, my apologies to the purists and the photographers. (I use Wonder Solder, BTW, it leaves that resin if you rework a joint too much...)

[Plague]

I somewhat agree I prefer a Strat over a Les Paul with the wreck for overall usage and versatility. But for lead I'd even then lean towards the Les Paul side. It's also what kind of band one is playing in. For heavy rock I could see wearing the LP all night, but probably not in a more blues or pop based gig.

But for me it's more of an EQ thing than a gain thing. I love the sustain of the Les Paul into the wreck, and for controlled feedback it's the BEST where on a strat you have to fight it a bit for control. However the Express is quite mid heavy and so is the Paul which though it helps sustain it can make for a less versatile tone. The strat has more of a mid scoop which works well with the wrecks mids. On a gain issue with the Les Paul the biggest deal for me is proper pots in the guitar. My original burst excels there with the original Centralabs. In my new historic I tried some after market pots which were way better than the stock ones. Though in time I actually put some original old Centralabs for my historic too. It's the only part changes on the guitar, other than caps and 50s wiring. Oh, that's another thing on the Les Paul when you have 50s wiring the tone control actually first pull some mids when you turn them, then as you back down further you get hi cut too. This mid cut really does help the a Les Paul work with the wreck better than you would expect when you turn BOTH the volume and tones down some. You can see me do this in my "Can You Hear It Ring?" amp/guitar demo video. Also with 50s wiring the tone knob also pulls back some extra volume, which also helps to get the guitar backed off even further.

So, even though I agree a strat works possibly a little better with the wreck versatility wise I do really love the Les Paul with the wreck for lead work. The pickups in my LPs (new and old) are both around 8k kind of typical for PAFs both old and new.

I agree, I have the Seymour Duncan Custom Shop wind my antiquity HB's at 7.18 neck and 8.17 Bridge. (in my 59 historic LP)

My liverpool LOVES them!

Ty

[M Fowler]

This has been a great post so keep it going. My Les Paul has stock pickups which I think are fairly hot. My express is loud and aggressive at 2 and going to 10-12 area really gets sounding sweet with sustain, overtones and harmonics. However, it is LOUD. Did I say that already. I have not tried different pre-amp tubes or 6V6 yet.

Also, Glen on another post we discussed speaker selection with the express and I have to say that I must try out the speakers you mentioned because I haven't found a good combination yet.

My liverpool has four resister left to be put in and then I can fire it up for the first time. I have worked on amps my whole life as a hobby but never built an amp from a bare chassis on up. Hoping to A/B the two amps with my strat, tele and Paul to see the difference. I am 52 and been called an aggressive player so we will see what happens. Thanks guys for all the advise.

Mark

[Roe]

weaker HBs sound good, e.g. filtertrons and pafs with low output and a2 or a4.