What causes the "bloom"?

[markmalin]

I just completed my second d'lite style amp and it sounds good so far, but with both my amps, the notes don't seem to have that "bloom" that you hear on some of the recordings here. I used the "tweaked D'Lite" schematic, so some of the plate resistor values and bypass resistor values are changed from Brownnote's original D'Lite. (I don't remember the values off hand - no schematic near by - but I can post that info later). This second chassis sound more alive than my first -- plate voltages are:

V1a = 197
V1b = 197
V2a = 198
V2b = 201
V3 I don't remember off hand, but in the upper 200's
V4 and 5 are around 400

Anyhow, my real question is, what causes that bloom? What can I look at to mod or adjust to get the notes to do that, or is that a playing technique? If I adjust the trim-pot on the O/D circuit above 12:00 it seems to overdrive too much to my taste, but would adjusting the trimpot be a factor?

Thanks,
Mark.

[ayan]

I just completed my second d'lite style amp and it sounds good so far, but with both my amps, the notes don't seem to have that "bloom" that you hear on some of the recordings here. I used the "tweaked D'Lite" schematic, so some of the plate resistor values and bypass resistor values are changed from Brownnote's original D'Lite. (I don't remember the values off hand - no schematic near by - but I can post that info later). This second chassis sound more alive than my first -- plate voltages are:

V1a = 197
V1b = 197
V2a = 198
V2b = 201
V3 I don't remember off hand, but in the upper 200's
V4 and 5 are around 400

Anyhow, my real question is, what causes that bloom? What can I look at to mod or adjust to get the notes to do that, or is that a playing technique? If I adjust the trim-pot on the O/D circuit above 12:00 it seems to overdrive too much to my taste, but would adjusting the trimpot be a factor?

Thanks,
Mark.

Hey Mark,

The one question that comes to mind is whether you are able to get "bloom" with your guitar when playing any other amp. What I am getting to with this is, while of course equipment plays a role, it probably has more to do with the rest of the equation (mainly you) than anything else. The best living example of this type of thing, to me, is Jeff Beck... He probably doesn't have the chirp and bloom that's commonly associated with Dumble players, but he's the only person on the planet -- that I am ware of -- who can make a guitar sound like that (that being like Jeff Beck himself), regardless of equipment, as he's proven to us over the last 4 decades. Blows my mind every time I see him play...

Anyway, I'll wait for your answer before I say anything else.

Cheers,

Gil

[Fischerman]

The best living example of this type of thing, to me, is Jeff Beck... He probably doesn't have the chirp and bloom that's commonly associated with Dumble players, but he's the only person on the planet -- that I am ware of -- who can make a guitar sound like that (that being like Jeff Beck himself), regardless of equipment, as he's proven to us over the last 4 decades.

"How's he do thayat?"
[img:300:356]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/P ... erPyle.jpg[/img]

[ayan]

"How's he do thayat?"
[img:300:356]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y135/P ... erPyle.jpg[/img]

Precisely, Gomer.

G.

[markmalin]

Hey Mark,

The one question that comes to mind is whether you are able to get "bloom" with your guitar when playing any other amp. What I am getting to with this is, while of course equipment plays a role, it probably has more to do with the rest of the equation (mainly you) than anything else. The best living example of this type of thing, to me, is Jeff Beck... He probably doesn't have the chirp and bloom that's commonly associated with Dumble players, but he's the only person on the planet -- that I am ware of -- who can make a guitar sound like that (that being like Jeff Beck himself), regardless of equipment, as he's proven to us over the last 4 decades. Blows my mind every time I see him play...

Anyway, I'll wait for your answer before I say anything else.

Cheers,

Gil

Hi Gil,

I'm totally OK with that answer. I've been playing long enough (34 years?) to know that a good guitarist can make anything sound good, and a firm believer in the idea that a lot is the player. It would be interesting to hear someone like dogears or stelligan play one of my amps. I think knowing that it's possible would lay my question to rest I guess it's a matter of convincing myself that I've done everything I can in building the amp right.

Mark

[talbany]

I don't know about everyone here but I'll do 2 or 3 amps one right after another with the same transformers caps board pretty much note for note.. You know after striking the first chord whether or not the Mojo god was kind to you that day.. I'll file good note bloom under the amps mojo factor...


Tony VVT

[heisthl]

Outside of bloomy fingers, I have my own take on "bloom" I think bloom happens when frequencies get compressed in the amp and decompress when notes are held. So if you can get the right upper mid frequency to compress (by being amplified to the point of slight nonlinearity) but not the lows and highs you have something that never sounds compressed even though there is blooming going on. Not to be confused with "sag" which can sound like bloom except in both directions and on all frequencies.

[ayan]

Hi Gil,

I'm totally OK with that answer. I've been playing long enough (34 years?) to know that a good guitarist can make anything sound good, and a firm believer in the idea that a lot is the player. It would be interesting to hear someone like dogears or stelligan play one of my amps. I think knowing that it's possible would lay my question to rest I guess it's a matter of convincing myself that I've done everything I can in building the amp right.

Mark

Hi Mark,

I don't think the bloom thing has anything to do with being good or not. For example, I cannot think of a single recording by Al Di Meola where he's got the bloom thing happening, or John McLaughling, or Eric Clapton, or SRV, or Steve Lukather... and the list could go on and on. It's an artifact that is either present or not, and I sincerely think it's more a function of the approach the player has than the amp he or she plays through. I once read an article by Walter Becker where he was talking about Larry Carlton, and he mentioned that when Larry played his guitar, the notes would get bigger after he played, and that it would happen acoustically, without him being plugeed in.

I am sure that if you heard anyone play through your amp, it would sound like they're playing through your amp... in that order (them first, then the amp). So, what I was trying to say in my previous post is that, most likely, if you try to get the bloom thing happening in your playing, it will happen for you. Every now and then, B.B. King will hit a single note on the 1st string on the highest octave of the key he's playing in at the time... and that one chirps every single time I've ever heard him play. Maybe that's something you can try to do and see if the amp helps or doesn't.

And I do agree with Tony too: some amps "have it" and some "don't," all things being equal and for no aparent reason. I can add something to that as well: don't give up on an amp that you've decided "doesn't have it." Try something different in it and one day you will find the right combination. I had an amp that was my ugly duck for about a year and I was ready to download it... I toyed with it and reuilt it a couple of times, now I think it's the best amp I have ever heard bar none...

Gil

[Bob-I]

I think there's a lot of validity in what Gil said, but I don't agree 100%. For example listen to the DVD with Carlton and Luk and you'll hear more bloom in Luk than Carlton, in fact Carlton's tone is pretty blah.

I believe bloom comes from the complexity in the tonal spectrum. What makes a Ken Fisher or Alexander Dumble is hearing this and being able to adjust lead dress, component selection etc to bring it out in an amp. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all figure this out and tweak our amps? Not gonna happen.

BTW, Mike Bloomfield said that he could make notes sing out with his vibrato. He vibrated the note against the fret like a violin bow to keep the notes going. He had great bloom with a Super Reverb and a Tele.

[larsmuller]

In my case; the moment I added the PI trimmer to my DLite things got way better... More bloom, more harmonics...

grtz
Lars

[stelligan]

BTW, Mike Bloomfield said that he could make notes sing out with his vibrato. He vibrated the note against the fret like a violin bow to keep the notes going. He had great bloom with a Super Reverb and a Tele.

This effect can not be underestimated IMHO. I remember a Guitar Player article from the early to mid 70s regarding BB King's use of vibrato. I believe it may have been Clapton's praise of it and one of those half page tutorial columns on technique. I later discovered that BB's concept was to emulate slide guitar players with the use of his vibrato. I practiced endlessly the use of my wrist and the "bowing" of a string against the fret to allow the note to continuously sustain. The BB King butterfly looking motion with the pointer finger and a sawing or bowing motion with the middle and others. On acoustic and electric instruments. I will even vibrate chords when I play them at times. A lot of Clapton's vibrato seems to be similar with less of the pointer finger BB thang. Albert King and SRV vibrato was like BB on steroids - usually wider and slower. So many examples, but all great vibrato and sustaining techniques. You can sometimes be so familiar with a player's sound that their use of vibrato can become transparent. All that said, some amps do allow subtle vibrato to speak better than others. And some players.....

Guitar setup is EXTREMELY important. Low action, while making a guitar easy to play can kill notes dead. Interaction with pickups and their distance from the strings as well. So many variables... So little time......

I second Gil on the don't give up on the tweaking comments - along with much of what he always says. An error I had in my homebrew D'Lite was recently pointed out to me by heisthl during a phone call. What's happening at the bass pot and PAB? What does the tonality sound like going from Clean to PAB. Correcting mine made an enormous difference in it's response. Some of those layouts need jumpered bass pots legs and some do not. Depends on whats going on at the PAB relay. I built it(should I say "started" it) a year ago - hang in there with it.

And Mark - thanks for the compliment, I am flattered and SO not worthy.

[talbany]

I believe Dumble was referring to note bloom here comparing it to floating on a football field filled with mushrooms... Oh!! sorry marshmallows...My question is why a football field?.. Are there more fragile harmonics there?.. California Dudes are a trip!!!No offense Gil..



Yes. The low end is absolutely luscious. You feel like you're floating on a football field filled with marshmallows. And it gives a singe to the midrange that puts solos right out there. It works great for chords and solos, but especially well for slide. It's the kind of enclosure that Lindley and Lowell George used.



Tony VVT

[Tdale]

In my case; the moment I added the PI trimmer to my DLite things got way better... More bloom, more harmonics...

grtz
Lars

What value do you use on that pot? And do you have identical values on the plate resistors?

In what position do you think the pot gives the most bloom?

Tommy

[larsmuller]

In my case; the moment I added the PI trimmer to my DLite things got way better... More bloom, more harmonics...

grtz
Lars

What value do you use on that pot? And do you have identical values on the plate resistors?

In what position do you think the pot gives the most bloom?

Tommy

I have 100K and 110K's in there. Trimmer is 10K. I have to open up the amp to check it,...

[Structo]

When you use a trimmer across the PI plates, how is that adjusted?

Do you measure the plate voltage and try to get them both to the same voltage?