Help: Comparing 1/2 power Liverpool, T-Rex, 18 Watt TMB, etc

[bcmatt]

Hey I could use some opinions.
I am about to build myself a Liverpool, an Express for a friend and some sort of combo for my sister's husband. My friend and I have wanted our Trainwreck clones for some time now, and I am finally going to order the parts.
However, this combo amp decision for my brother-in-law has really been stalling me. He really loves the preamp style gain in my JCM800 clone, but he would really like a combo amp. I've been thinking along the 18 watt lines, but I haven't been able to try anything but the normal 18 watt, and I know it doesn't do the type of distortion he wants. I've chosen the 2xEL84 cathode biased because it seems like a nice easy platform for Dana's basic VVR (I love the VVR in my DC30 clone) in addition to being not overboard on weight and appropriate for a good 1x12 combo cab. It seems like the most amount of power that he would ever need too.

Can an 18 Watt TMB do the more modern style JCM type distortion if by having a Master Volume as well? I've never really found any good clips.

How does the T-Rex compare with the 18 Watt TMB tonewise and gainwise?

How would a 1/2 power Liverpool compare with a T-Rex? Would this primarily use different transformers instead of 18 Watt iron?

I've also considered matching the JCM preamp with the 18 watt power section. Any thoughts on this? I saw it was discussed on the 18 watt forum, but it doesn't seem as tried and tested and it might not work so smoothly.

I know it might be better to try and sell him on a trainwreck style clone, but I don't yet own one for him to try, and I've never played with one myself yet either (soon!). But a combo is what I think he really desires for his first real tube amp, and I would like to order parts for all 3 amps at the same time.
So ya, I would love opinions on how to get him his JCM800 style gain in an 18 watt sized combo.

Oh ya: Is it obvious that I should go for an SS rectifier as well for him?

Thanks. I really value your guys' opinion a lot because no one knows good tone like the forumites here. I asked about this on the 18 watt forum (in the JCM thread) but I'm not getting much luck.

[CaseyJones]

Hey I could use some opinions.
I am about to build myself a Liverpool, an Express for a friend and some sort of combo for my sister's husband. My friend and I have wanted our Trainwreck clones for some time now, and I am finally going to order the parts.
However, this combo amp decision for my brother-in-law has really been stalling me. He really loves the preamp style gain in my JCM800 clone, but he would really like a combo amp. I've been thinking along the 18 watt lines, but I haven't been able to try anything but the normal 18 watt, and I know it doesn't do the type of distortion he wants. I've chosen the 2xEL84 cathode biased because it seems like a nice easy platform for Dana's basic VVR (I love the VVR in my DC30 clone) in addition to being not overboard on weight and appropriate for a good 1x12 combo cab. It seems like the most amount of power that he would ever need too.

Can an 18 Watt TMB do the more modern style JCM type distortion if by having a Master Volume as well? I've never really found any good clips.

Look up the Soldano Atomic 16. It's a JCM800 preamp w/ 2xEL84 output. I'd build it with 6V6 outputs. Try it both ways if you have time.

How does the T-Rex compare with the 18 Watt TMB tonewise and gainwise?

The T-Rex has lots more gain.

Mark built the first one before there was a proliferation of Trainwreck information.

Check out Brown Note's Wreck Lite. I like simplicity, that one is properly stripped down.

How would a 1/2 power Liverpool compare with a T-Rex? Would this primarily use different transformers instead of 18 Watt iron?

30 watt amps on half power aren't a lot quieter on half power than with all four EL84s in play. If you have a big PT and a big OT the amp loses a little complexity tone-wise but that's about it.

10 to 20 watts built as 10 to 20 watts to begin with in general yields better distortion tone at reasonable volumes than something larger does at "half power". The tradeoff is that you'll have to work harder to get tight bass and "clean headroom" out of the smaller amp.

"You makes yer bets and you lays yer money down"...

I've also considered matching the JCM preamp with the 18 watt power section. Any thoughts on this? I saw it was discussed on the 18 watt forum, but it doesn't seem as tried and tested and it might not work so smoothly.

Really? 'Cuz the little Soldano frickin' RIPS!

There was a guy outside of Boston buildin' 18 watt "JCM800s". It's been tried and tested, it works kick-ass. Next thing you know you'll be growin' yer hair long, wearin' too much Spandex and cruisin' the pawn shops for a pointy headed guitar.

I know it might be better to try and sell him on a trainwreck style clone, but I don't yet own one for him to try, and I've never played with one myself yet either (soon!). But a combo is what I think he really desires for his first real tube amp, and I would like to order parts for all 3 amps at the same time.
So ya, I would love opinions on how to get him his JCM800 style gain in an 18 watt sized combo.

Build a Wreck for yourself and an Atomic 16 clone fer yer bud.

I keep gettin' hung up on, "What will be the ultimate Next Project?" as if it's gonna be the last amp I ever build. Then there's the next one and the next one after that and so on. Don't build something that's a half-assed compromise 'cuz you want to keep yer options open. If yer bud wants JCM800 go JCM800. Then there won't be any bitchin' or nagging doubts. Build yerself a Wreck, build it as the pure NO B.S. real deal as real as you can make it. Then you'll know.

[labb]

Another 18 watt option you might consider is Phil's Superlite TMB. A little more gain. Also go over to AX84 site and take a look at the Lead II preamp. Match it up with the 20 Watt PP poweramp..

[stoo]

Trinity Amps has an 18 watter with 3 options one of which is the "plexi" option. http://www.trinityamps.com/
An they're Canadian too!
Stew
PS. I have no affiliation with trinity.

[NitroLiq]

If you go to the Zounds section of 18watt.com and listen to the midatlantic ampfest clips, you can hear several 18w TMB builds. Yes, they can do the modern gain. You can add JA's mods to dial in even more.

http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name= ... ic_AmpFest

The trainwrecks to me have a bit more of a "fizzier' gain if that makes sense.

[dartanion]

The fizziness in the EL84 wrecks is do to the cold biased PI. You can change that around for a warmer bias or play with snubbers.

With that said, I have built a few wreck type amps including a 2xEL84 Liverpool type amp and it does the clean to mean thing pretty well. Compared to a 4xEL84 Liverpool, the 2x has less headroom, so it seems more aggressive. It also is not as thick sounding as the 4x, which makes sense. That can be compensated for with some judicious tweaks.

You can build a Trex / 2x EL84 Liverpool, then convert it to a standard 18 watt without too much hassle. I have used an 18watt power section in one of these 2x jobbers and it sounds quite nice.

[Richie]

The T-Rex has lots more gain.

Mark built the first one before there was a proliferation of Trainwreck information.

I built the first one. Mark built one and made a few nice changes.. Geekmacdaddy also built one,and has some clips of it on his site. The Trex had the melding of a Wreck,and an 18 watt channel. The VVR 2xEL84 liverpool is also a very nice amp. And there are many other options that will get you in that relm,as was suggested above.
There are many options and ideas you could use to build an amp like that.
I don't think the Trex follows the line of the JCM.

[NitroLiq]

The fizziness in the EL84 wrecks is do to the cold biased PI. You can change that around for a warmer bias or play with snubbers.

I was talking about wrecks in general, EL84 or EL34. From my limited experience playing them vs. Marshall types...that's tonal difference for me...wreck has more gain on tap typically and tends to be a fizzier gain. Not bad or good just different. Some people dig it...some don't.

[bcmatt]

Yikes, this decision is still intimidating.

I keep thinking that maybe he would like a trainwreck styled amp, but I had none yet to let him try. Therefore, he says that the JCM800 was his favorite so far.
We decided that we want this in an 18 watt styled combo chassis (and cabinet).

I know Richie and Dana have done 2x EL84 Liverpools (and that's what I was referring to when I said 1/2 power Liverpool) How do those compare to the Trex? The Trex is made for an 18 watt chassis and transformers, but does the 2x EL84 Liverpool give a greater Wreck tone? Is the Trex able to give more Marshall roar? Or are they basically just the same but the Trex is less balanced and more something you would try an MV on?

I guess I am just guessing that he would like the wreck tone, but I have no way to know for sure. (I want to order chassis' for the 2 wrecks and this combo amp at the same time; so there won't be any trying out of a liverpool for him before deciding)

One way I was leaning to give him a versatile combo amp was to something like an 18 Watt TMB EF86. It would have the EF86 channel and then have the Trex in place of the TMB channel. I was thinking it could maybe have the Master Volume on just the Trex channel, but have a VVR scaling the whole amp. Then he could choose between just preamp gain on the TREX channel, or go for the whole amp clipping using the VVR. Or, he could go between balanced volumes of a clean EF86 channel, and the gain of the high gain (with MV) Trex channel. They could be switched between with an A/B pedal, or if I could figure out how to do some sort of footswitch channel selection with just one guitar input.....

Of course, that was on the assumption that he might like the Trex. Maybe I'm getting too ambitious because he never did demand a 2 channel amp. I just want him to be real happy with his amp.

Anyways, thanks so far your help, I've been looking into the suggestions. Keep them coming; I don't feel too close to pulling the trigger yet...
Of course, my own Liverpool is also waiting on this decision to be made so I would like it to happen soon...

[dartanion]

The Trex is a Wreck style preamp mated to an 18watt power section. The preamp is not quite the same, but close.

The 2 holer liverpool would use a lower voltage PT 260-0-260 vs. 290-0-290 and a 10K-ish primary on the OT vs 8K.

I have built a 2 holer liverpool using the Wreck preamp (only minor tweaks, but within know values of real wrecks) mated to a modified 18watt power section and 18watt iron. Sounds pretty darn close to one using Wreck Spec iron, but different in that it has more Marshally type growl. This is more like the Trex than a regular liverpool because of the iron and power section.

If you want an accurate Wreck style build, follow a known liverpool schematic and get proper iron. You can get a custom wound OT if you choose, or find something that is 10K and around 20W power handling. A suitable PT should be easy to find. Hammond makes some that will work nicely and be inexpensive.