EV12L VS. EV12S

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

I spliced the response curves of the 12L and 12S for comparison. These illustrations were taken from the datasheets where they were measured in TL806 enclosures.

Looks like the 12S has less low and mids, no?

[IMG:583:896]http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb17 ... SEV12S.jpg[/img]

[muchxs]

I'd ignore the graphs for a moment and trust my ears. I can't quite make out the frequencies but your speaker with more bass also has a deeper dip in the upper mids then a hump way up high. That might sound great for Zakk's pinch harmonics as interpreted by his EMGs. Is that what you use?

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

I'd ignore the graphs for a moment and trust my ears.

Well, it serves as a good visual representation of the difference between these speakers for those people out there that don’t own either a 12L or 12S. How can I trust my ears if neither is sitting in front of me, you understand? If you have some sound clips comparing the two, I’d be dearly interested.

That might sound great for Zakk's pinch harmonics as interpreted by his EMGs. Is that what you use?

I’m not using the Black Label 12L, I have an Avatar cab (oval port) with EV12L classics which are the reissue 12Ls. Here’s a pic of my cab:

[IMG768]http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb17 ... 2EVCab.jpg[/img]

I can't quite make out the frequencies…

I attached the EV12L and EV12S datasheets. Maybe the can help.

[dogears]

The S is slightly smoother in the mids and has a slightly softer low. It also rolls off smoother. I have both. I need to get another Thiele so I can accurately A/B in real time.

I think the S actually has a fuller mid because it has no dip...... Notice the huge dip the L takes from 1K to 2K.

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

Interesting! I was thinking about getting a Thiele and slapping a 12S in there just for the reason of having a speaker with a bit less bass than the L. I see that Gary makes some Thiele style cabs. Hmmm....

[muchxs]

Clips don't tell you anything. Unless you're running your computer through a pair of Ureis that is...

You own "L"s already. Do you like them? Do they do what they want them to do?

I see that Gary makes some Thiele style cabs. Hmmm....

Guess I better run out to the shop and whip up a batch of Thieles this week. If I can find time in between the Dumble cabs that is...

An "S" in a Thiele may act like an "L" in your Avatar.

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

Clips don't tell you anything.

Disagree. It's relative, if you play them through the same reference they can be of use.

You own "L"s already. Do you like them? Do they do what they want them to do?

You mean, "Do they do what YOU what them to do?"

Yes, I like them very much but like I told Scott, they have a tremendous bass response.

An "S" in a Thiele may act like an "L" in your Avatar.

Please explain.

[muchxs]

You own "L"s already. Do you like them? Do they do what they want them to do?

You mean, "Do they do what YOU what them to do?"

Yes, I like them very much but like I told Scott, they have a tremendous bass response.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

An "S" in a Thiele may act like an "L" in your Avatar.

Please explain.

A Thiele is designed to augment bass response. If you're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges then you'll be o.k.. For reference the difference between the "S" version and the "L" version side by side in similar Avatar cabinets is a fair comparison. It's a level playing field. Use an "S" in a cabinet designed to extend bass response (a Thiele) and in all probability the "excess" bass will still be apparent. Change multiple variables and sometimes you end up null.

What I'd suggest is a more dramatic change rather than subtle variations on a theme. If the EVs are too bass heavy either tweak your cabinet or shop around for a speaker with much less bass response.

[UltraHookedOnPhonix]

Thanks for the explanation!

Now on a "real" Thiele you can cover the ports to right?

[dogears]

The S is a much different speaker. Short cone, 75hz cone. Quite different beast. Just saying....

[thyx]

Aside from the possibility of a flabby bass with the S version, I'd be concerned about the rolled-off high frequencies. The S is just a more mid-rangey speaker, it seems. I don't use either speaker (though I do have experience with the L version)...but as somebody else said, trust your ears more than the charts. Those charts are made at 4 volts...things can change when you power the speakers up full volume.

[muchxs]

Aside from the possibility of a flabby bass with the S version, I'd be concerned about the rolled-off high frequencies.

I wouldn't be concerned about "rolled off highs". Either version has more high frequency extension than most Celestions for instance.

We all go down the same path. First we find out that when our ears are fresh and unused they're capable of discerning tones from 20hz to 20khz. Then we're told a "proper" hi-fi speaker should be close to flat from 20hz to 20khz. After learning this we're dismayed to find that guitar drivers roll off under 80hz and somewhere between 5k and 8k on top. It's terrible. We want those extra two octaves down to 20hz.

Want and need are two different things.

[benoit]

Aside from the possibility of a flabby bass with the S version, I'd be concerned about the rolled-off high frequencies.

I wouldn't be concerned about "rolled off highs". Either version has more high frequency extension than most Celestions for instance.

We all go down the same path. First we find out that when our ears are fresh and unused they're capable of discerning tones from 20hz to 20khz. Then we're told a "proper" hi-fi speaker should be close to flat from 20hz to 20khz. After learning this we're dismayed to find that guitar drivers roll off under 80hz and somewhere between 5k and 8k on top. It's terrible. We want those extra two octaves down to 20hz.

Want and need are two different things.

True, and you can kill that want dead pretty quick by playing guitar through a high-fi speaker, no? Anyway, even if you're playing a 7-string with a low B your fundamental is only really hitting about 60Hz. E is about 82Hz so you're losing a little on the very low end. I think it works out for the best though because on speakers that do go that low (such as the 15 in my Bassman 20 combo) the bass can get a little overwhelming.

[thyx]

Aside from the possibility of a flabby bass with the S version, I'd be concerned about the rolled-off high frequencies.

I wouldn't be concerned about "rolled off highs". Either version has more high frequency extension than most Celestions for instance.

We all go down the same path. First we find out that when our ears are fresh and unused they're capable of discerning tones from 20hz to 20khz. Then we're told a "proper" hi-fi speaker should be close to flat from 20hz to 20khz. After learning this we're dismayed to find that guitar drivers roll off under 80hz and somewhere between 5k and 8k on top. It's terrible. We want those extra two octaves down to 20hz.

Want and need are two different things.

Well I never said this was supposed to be a Hi-Fi speaker. One thing that curves ARE good for is discerning how a speaker responds with regard to itself. What's happening around 3K on the "S" most likely will be audibly perceived as a spike. Such problem does not exist on the "L".

And comparing an EV to a Celestion is comparing apples to oranges.

[dogears]

Thyx,

I have both the 12L and 12S. The 12L is spikier to my ear. Go look at the graphs again. The 12L has much more high end content. The 12S is not spiky. It is smooth.... The 12S falls off pretty sharply at 3.5K where as the 12L stays flat at 96db all the way up through 5K.

Best way to put it is that the 12S is creamier and the 12L is more clinical and sterile. At least for me....

Well I never said this was supposed to be a Hi-Fi speaker. One thing that curves ARE good for is discerning how a speaker responds with regard to itself. What's happening around 3K on the "S" most likely will be audibly perceived as a spike. Such problem does not exist on the "L".

And comparing an EV to a Celestion is comparing apples to oranges.