Help needed with amp choice, hrm or nonhrm

[tonelab2]

Dear Abby
My 15yo nephew has been playing piano and singing since he was 5yo and in the last couple of years he has taken up guitar. He has a nice collection of guitars including an early 70s Gibson 335, Fender thinline tele and numerous strat types. Recently he's joined a working metal band as frontman and his father ask me to build him an amp. I decided on a D clone since I have the parts and I'm sure the metal thing is a passing phase ( didn't they say that about rock&roll). The parts I have include mercury twin reverb tranformers, chassis ect. so 100 charlies it is then. I know the 100k amps are harder to play, built one last year for friend and it has beautiful cleans but as Gil and others have mentioned they make you work a little more so I thought I'd stick to the 220k plates since he's still a kid and don't want to put him off D clones. My problem is do I build him HRM or nonHRM. Haven't tried a hrm build before nor have I played through one so I'm totally in the dark with HRM. I presume he'll be putting pedals in front (distortion pedal maybe, what do they use for metal nowdays? )
All thoughts appreciated
signed
2hrmOrNot2hrm

[heisthl]

Dear Abby
I know the 100k amps are harder to play, built one last year for friend and it has beautiful cleans but as Gil and others have mentioned they make you work a little more so I thought I'd stick to the 220k plates since he's still a kid and don't want to put him off D clones. 2hrmOrNot2hrm

Why not give him 100k plates on V1 and the 220k/150k on the OD? I would say non-HRM in spite of the great metal tone of the Gil/MacDaddy HRM clip. IMHO the non-Hrm does it better by making it easier to dial in for the player, just leave off the LNF on V1 if you don't think it's "raw" enough. I think you have to be 21 to own a HRM anyway.

[tonelab2]

Thanks Henry. That's what I needed to know. So for the 100k Kcaps do i use 10uf or 5uf.?
thanks again

[dogears]

I disagree.... Surprise surprise!!

I'd do an HRM, or maybe Bluesmaster. Cleans are stellar and the gain tones can cover anything and competantly get crunchy rhythm tones. No matter what you do, the non HRM is not as good for rock and roll rhythm. As for lead tones, some may prefer the non HRM, but plenty of others prefer the HRM.

The HRM will get the hybrid tones that can cover it all. The only decision is Skyliner or Bluesmaster. I say BM. Cleans are huge and the amp has just enough Marshallness to satisfy.

as for what to use on the 100K plates...only 10uf or 22uf. 4.7 is not an option IMHO.

[Stanz]

I suggest all of this knowing nothing about the young lads playing abilities...

Remember, he is a young guitar player. It is possible that neither amp will be ideal for him. If he is playing metal, what is his picking style like and how will the amp respond to that? It would be a shame to build him an otherwise beautiful amp that is in the end not suited for him, and he ends up not liking it.

Maybe a wreck if he's doing metal?

I would have him try out a few to see what HE thinks about them, or you so you can see how it fits for him. Ideally, he gets something that will inspire him to want to play more.

[talbany]

I have to agree with Scott here HRM.. Easier to play and dial in a OD tone he likes.. Most youngsters like the OD a bit scooped with more crunch as well as more gain at lower volumes.. Keeps Mom happy..
My 2 cents..



Tony VVT

[tonelab2]

Thanks guys, all good advice and all taken on board as well. Well after searching this afternoon I've dug up 2 sets of Mercury Magnets TwinReverb OTs and 2 Weber PTs. At this stage I'll build both, nonHRM and HRM. My wife won't be happy as I'm supposed to be house renovating not messing with amps.
But on the up side, I'll get to keep the leftover one for myself. As mentioned neither might be his 'cup of tea or coffee' for that matter. My hopes are that it will be a tool he keeps and grows into over time as his tastes develope. Prior to the metal gig he was doing solo gigs singing/playing country and Top40 tunes. Hasn't been touch by the BlueThumb Gods as yet but it's only a matter of time.
My guess is the other guys in his band ( older and armed with Marshall stacks)
chose him for his vocal ability and sweep picking skills. All he's got to do now to get out of it is to suggest the band plays a few country tunes, and you won't see 'em for dust.

[Luthierwnc]

My policy has always been to make one for myself and send the kid the amp that falls out of the top 4 or 5. Of course, sometimes the new one doesn't crack the "A" list from the start. They are bunched pretty tightly right now. Skip

[dave g]

In all honesty, I don't know if a Dclone is right for him if he wants to do metal. An SLO would be a much better choice. However, if you think the metal thing is just a phase he's going through, a BM HRM will sort of do metal, but will be waiting there for him as an amazing amp once he outgrows heavy metal.

[JamesO]

Don't forget throwing in the right pedal to get it there if it isn't already.

[massygt6]

A Non-HRM with a simple eq pedal in the loop can be a metal monster...listen to that...
this is my OTS with a boss ge7 in the loop and NO BOOSTER...OD+PAB e toneshaped via eq in the loop...
http://media.putfile.com/music-12-54

[Bob-I]

IMHO an HRM will be too polite for his needs. For metal he'll need something raw, out of control and gutsy. HRM's are smooth and controlled. In fact Dumble's in general are too slick for metal.

Go to the SLO clone forum and look at either a SLO or a Messy Booger. Not only are these amps more aggressive, but they sell PCB's over there to make building easy.

JMO and not necessarally that of the management.

[danotron]

I say nonHRM....get ride of the chanell switching and use all four tube stages to dial in a really heavy sound....he'll want lots of bottom end thump but not muddy bottom...a closed back 4x12 speaker cab is a must.

[phsyconoodler]

If you do a D'Lite,change the PI to 2203/4 values,change the presence to match and use EL34's.Then it will do high-gain metal tones better.As it is it does great hard rock but falls short on heavier stuff.The mids need to be scouped to make him happier.

['67_Plexi]

I disagree.... Surprise surprise!!

I'd do an HRM, or maybe Bluesmaster. Cleans are stellar and the gain tones can cover anything and competantly get crunchy rhythm tones. No matter what you do, the non HRM is not as good for rock and roll rhythm. As for lead tones, some may prefer the non HRM, but plenty of others prefer the HRM.

The HRM will get the hybrid tones that can cover it all. The only decision is Skyliner or Bluesmaster. I say BM. Cleans are huge and the amp has just enough Marshallness to satisfy.

as for what to use on the 100K plates...only 10uf or 22uf. 4.7 is not an option IMHO.

Agreed...totally. HRM all the way. It can have the tightness on the low end that you need.

Some 'metal' mods !!

1. HRM, 100K to ground on the OD input (where the 25K trimmer - 4.7K resistor would be).
2. Use a 1MA Drive control.

3. Increase the amount of power stage negative feedback. If you would have used a 100K on the 8 ohm, tap, use 47K or 68K.
4. Replace the 200K - 470K/47pF network with a 820K fixed resistor.

That's pretty much the arrangement I used on an amp for Dr Know of Bads Brains. He play tons of heavy tight Drop D/C stuff.

All this assumes you know how to build a stable high gain amp and would know what to do if it was unstable.

Alan