Dumble vs Bruno

[jazzyjoepass]

Totally agree with Normster ... let's talk about resistors and current ratings. Never liked those bashing on PRS Forums and TGP.


I want to learn and am here to learn.

[groovtubin]

<rant> I'm not sure where this thread is heading, but I thought this was a Dumble forum? Specifically, a Dumble clone builder's forum...you know, with guys that build clones. Not guys that buy clones, or bash clones, but guys who share what they know and help each other try to dial in tone.

TGP has already beat the Bruno clean thing to death. Who cares? If I wanted BF cleans, I wouldn't have gutted my Bassman. As for the pics, I've seen them posted before, as have others on this board. Andy Fuchs ain't gonna sell amps here, and Bob Stirner ain't gonna sway us to Bruno.

As far as I'm concerned, this crap belongs on TGP, not here.</rant>

[FUCHSAUDIO]

I'm far beyond it mattering to me or my business, as far as posting people's pics. It was an observation about amplifier build quality that I thought I could contribute to. I didn't post any malicious comments about the pictures. They were for informational purposes only. I don't build point to point, so theres no real fair and balanced comparison anyway.

I could have posted at least twenty different manufacturers amps I have serviced or rebuilt over the last ten years, all a facinating and equally bizzarre dichotomy of glowing reputations vs scary build qualities, many of whom you own and/or who's products you support or have supported regularly, but did not.

Unfortunately, on internet forums, there's a glaring double standard if I as a manufacturer post it, or someone else as an owner or hobbiest did. I suppose I could have sent the pics to someone and asked them to post them, but I don't operate that way.

The fact is Bruno (likely) built it, he sold it, and it's out there. Unless the amp was welded closed, or buried in cement, there it is. Even if someone working for Bruno built it, he's signed every chassis I've ever seen, and I would assume, approves the amps when done. If you don't want pictures of your amps on the web like this, then don't build them this way. Every company had a beginning, so maybe the new ones sound better and look better, I don't know nor care.

BTW: I made no assertions that the Cowtipper didn't sound good, but for those prices, I believe it should sound good, be built well, and you should provide service to your customers, whether they bought it new or used. And FWIW, Tag is lovin his Fuchs as much as his Bruno, but for different reasons.

[Normster]

I should probably let this go, but I did want to clear one thing up. I wasn't trying to imply that Andy was here to sell amps. I for one, appreciate that a respected builder would take the time to share his knowledge with us. As far as the pics go, it made a lot of us feel better about our build quality.

[ayan]

I should probably let this go, but I did want to clear one thing up. I wasn't trying to imply that Andy was here to sell amps. I for one, appreciate that a respected builder would take the time to share his knowledge with us. As far as the pics go, it made a lot of us feel better about our build quality.

For what it's worth, I am among those who think a picture is worth a thousand words, but there are cases when a thousand worth plus handful of written ones can help put things in perspective, so I will offer a caveat.

I've known/seen/had the picture Andy posted for many years, and it doesn't look pretty, period. I later saw pictures of other Brunos (another Super 100 at TGP, some amps on Guitar Player magazine, and now the Cowtipper shown earlier on this thread), and while no Bruno looks like a Hiwatt amp inside to me, I have it on good authority that the rat's nest amp Andy posted a picture of was a prototype and sold as such.

So to me, knowing all too well that building a protoype takes a certain amount of time, building an amp on PCBs takes less time, and building an amp by hand and making it look great takes a lot longer, one piece of information I think would be fair to have before reaching any conclusions is how much that amp sold for, to see how compared to prices of other Super 100 -- with prices starting at $4K+. I do not know that answer, and have no dog in this fight other than to try to be fair. If you want my personal opinion about the Super 100, I feel the following quote from Brunos's website about the Super 100 "It was designed by Tony to be the finest sounding channel switching amp in the world" is a misrepresentation at least, and probably an insult to some. The amp may or may not sound great, but I am put off by the marketing approach.

Cheers,

Gil

[Bob Stirner]

<rant> I'm not sure where this thread is heading, but I thought this was a Dumble forum? Specifically, a Dumble clone builder's forum...you know, with guys that build clones. Not guys that buy clones, or bash clones, but guys who share what they know and help each other try to dial in tone.

TGP has already beat the Bruno clean thing to death. Who cares? If I wanted BF cleans, I wouldn't have gutted my Bassman. As for the pics, I've seen them posted before, as have others on this board. Andy Fuchs ain't gonna sell amps here, and Bob Stirner ain't gonna sway us to Bruno.

As far as I'm concerned, this crap belongs on TGP, not here.</rant>

As far as I can tell Normster, the header does say Dumble Discussion...does it not? I am not a builder, but I AM a player and not a basher. For the record , my familiarity with "clones " stems from actual experience owning and gigging with DUMBLE amplifiers. ( ODS #146, #147, #163, Overdrive Reverb #0026, one off 4-10" Manzamp, Small Special, Dumbleator ). If ya require some kinda reference Normster, ask your good bud Scott L, or Bill Krinard or Steve Kimock or Mark Karan or Dave Henderson. My assertions had nothing ( you are right ) with building but rather right and wrong, I call em as I see em'. Now, wasn't the title of this thread..Dumble vs Bruno?..me thinks so. Andy sequed his gut shot of a Bruno into questioning someones reputation, validity whatever...ie a "reputable " builder. Well, Tony Bruno IS a reputable builder as is Andy, yet I don't find Tony, nor Bill Krinard, nor Gil, nor Graydon openly offering up gut shots of their direct competitors designs, good , bad or otherwise. My intention here is not to "sway" anyone towards Bruno cleans or any other amp for that matter, yet right is right and wrong is wrong..it was a cheap shot that has occured in the past on the TGP forum and elsewhere.
Having said that, I know, admire and LIKE Andy Fuch's and his amplifiers, and respect his technical knowhow.
Oh and by the way Normster, I have lovely hybrid A grail internal shots if your a good boy.LOL
Peace and kindest regards,
Bob

[MarkB]

With the recent unpleasantness on another amp board, I'd be happy for this discussion go away. People come here to help each other build amps, not piss on products or each other. If you have nothing to contribute to us... you can figure it out.


Nice people rule.


Mean people suck.

[Normster]

Bob, you don't need references or credentials, although Scott DOES speak highly of you. It's also quite apparent (thanks Gil) that I've stepped into something that has deeper context than what it appears at first glance. I think I'll sit this one out.

As for being a good boy, I've been trying for 50 years and just can't seem to get the hang of it.

Peace

[Bob Stirner]

Normster, email me at schnoidley@comcast.net
Regards, Bob

[ElectronAvalanche]

Hi there,

I followed this thread closely and want to chime in. Probably before it gets closed for good....

I really like this forum since it is nice to be able to publicly discuss Dumble amps, the building (for personal use or use of a friend only) of clones and tweaking.

I think there are some very knowledgable people on this forum who are more than willing to help and share.

Somehow I have the feeling that it would be NOT a good idea, if this forum would become a place where commercial cloners start to bash the works of other commercial cloners.

In the end the only people that will loose are the hobbyists, since the most experienced guys will swiftly go away (understandably) once things get unpleasant.

Dumble came up with some very nice circuits. He is what he is and I respect what he does. I think this forum is showing some sort of respect to Dumble, since so many people strive to understand his circuits and be able to recreate them for themselves for the mere pleasure of it and learning something on the way.

Since his clientel is so small, no hobbyist cloner on here takes away any of Dumbles business.

I certainly do have my own thoughts about the commercial cloners out there. I have yet to see them share their findings or see them help people here.

It is their business to build clones of Dumbles for a living. Some have come up with great ideas and some have taken the ckt to some other place. I respect that.

But I would wish that this forum remains a place for the hobbyist not for anybody else. If commercial builders want to help and participate feel free to join and enjoy, but please leave the business and everything related to it out.

Cheers,

Dominik

[FUCHSAUDIO]

While I appreciate the kind words from many (Bob especially), I do want to clear up a couple of things: While my amps share similarities with Dumbles, my personal feeling (and that of those who know the innerds of my stuff), I don't build "clones". There are more differences than similarities IMHO. There are also products (like the Tripledrive) that clearly go beyond clones. There are more and better ideas coming as well. When a product is "inspired-by" (like the ODS or Train-45) I say it. Never made a secret of it, in over 5 years of having a website.

It's been mentioned here (so don't scold me for saying it), but there are other commercial amps that are clearly just poorly executed Hybrid A schematics, sloppily built, with grafted-in reverbs and loops, and marketed by companies that insists they're "not cloners" despite similarities Stevie Wonder could see in many of their products. Live and let live. It's their compnay and they can do and market what and how they wish.

While I still enjoy the "hobby" aspects of amp building, gear buying, selling and trading, I don't feel that sharing technical details of my products is in the best interests of my business, nor should be any measure of my freely answering questions about these subjects.

On the other hand: I've answered most any e-mails, a few phone calls, and various inquiries as best I can, without compromising anything I've developed or tweaked in my own gear. Sometimes even Scott-L flirts uncomfortably close to "the line" but is kind enough to respect that fine border, despite his enthusiasm as a player and tweaker.

Now, as far as said picture being a prototype ? Well, I've worked on other S-100's that looked no better. I won't post anything else (why beat a dead horse), but that doesn't represent a 4-K amp, as Gil so tactfully pointed out. I wish I had the time to repair, tweak or otherwise help those who own some of these products, but I don't. Bruno (BTW) ain't the only company doing it, but that doesn't matter.

In the spirit of Normster's post, it would be nice if Bob came to this forum to share his vast knowledge of these amps. He visited my home over 7 years ago, and was impressed enough with an early prototype Fuchs to say some nice things that fed the desire to continue the design work and make this into the business it has become.

I appreciate that you've shared nice comments about my products here. In that spirit, you should share YOUR knowledge here, rather than join a thread and (in your first three posts on the forum) take a swipe at an otherwise benign discussion. "can you feel the love tonite ?" lol.

[bnwitt]

Well you know what everyone, I don't see a darn thing wrong with any of the posts in this thread. Maybe that's because I was able to read them all at once and understand the meanings that are sometimes difficult to see in a first post without the clarification of subsequent posts.

As far as I can tell this is a great thread that has the possibility of going somewhere helpful. I say post all the pics you've got of Dumble, Bruno what ever. The more the merrier. Of course the pics with the dog doo don't help much but at least they're good for a snicker or two.

[roknroll]

Cowtipper is a Bandmaster clone with a jucier OT

[Bear]

Cowtipper is a Bandmaster clone with a jucier OT

Which Bandmaster? 5E7, non-reverb head, reverb head?

Bear

[fngrstyl]

Cowtipper is a Bandmaster clone with a jucier OT

Which Bandmaster? 5E7, non-reverb head, reverb head?

Bear

AA768 with minor changes