Selling amps on eBay; best practices?

[joebob]

I am considering selling a 5e3 clone I made on Ebay and was wondering about proper shipping. Should I ship the tubes seperaltely or leave them in the amp? Is bubble wrap sufficient for a safe trip via UPS. Any ideas people might have on this subject would be appreciated.

Dave

[Structo]

I would definitely pull the tubes and wrap them separately in bubble wrap.
I also would use sheet Styrofoam on the sides, top and bottom of the amp, maybe even double box it.
No peanuts.
It has to be packaged so the amp cannot shift in the carton.
Good luck!

[muchxs]

Is bubble wrap sufficient for a safe trip via UPS. Any ideas people might have on this subject would be appreciated.

The short answer: No.

I never use UPS. They're the "Tightest Ship in the Shipping Business", there's also the negative interaction between Union labor and non-union management over there. While I support the Teamsters as the last viable labor union in the U.S. I don't support the guy in the white shirt holding the stopwatch trying to get maximum work out of their labor. There's fast and there's careful, if you want fast and careful use FedEx.

When I ship 5E3 cabinets:

I cut a panel either from triple wall cardboard of Baltic birch to protect the grille. The panel sandwiches the grille between the standoff strips and itself, that way there's almost no way to stretch the grille until it's slack during shipping. My panel is friction fit in the front of the 5E3 cab, I use a tab made of duct tape so the end user can easily pull the panel out.

I always pack the amp in a lawn and leaf bag or a heavy duty contractor's bag. I then pack the amp in styro peanuts. It's very important to segregate the amp from the peanuts, otherwise the packing material gets into everything.

Excess air may get trapped in the bag. Cut a small slit in the bag, purge the air, close the hole with packing tape.

Consider that most shippers sort packages on a belt system. Prepare your package to withstand a four foot drop on to concrete, that's almost the industry standard. Don't screw around, if they can break it they will break it.

I'm not too concerned about leaving the tubes in the amp because I pack things really well. My rationale is that they'll have to destroy the amp to get to the tubes, if there's that much damage it's a write-off anyway. It's a good idea to gaff the power cord down to the speaker frame so it can't whip the tubes, the back of the speaker or anything else.

Anything that can move in the package can cause damage. Consider that if the amp can move in the package even slightly it can create rub marks on the covering.

This doesn't apply to the 5E3 but... if you used a Hammond chassis for a custom amp you may want to cut styrofoam blocks and wedge them between the chassis, the transformers and the cabinet. You can get styrofoam from computer or consumer electronics stores. Consider what that heavy transformer will do under a couple G's deceleration, it can and will bend the chassis. If the chassis doesn't bend the force might deform the feet on the transformer.

U-Haul sells a "medium box" that's almost perfect for a tweed Deluxe. It's 18" x 18" x 24". That's the same size as the box used for large coffee cups at convenience stores. Grab 'em before they toss 'em out!

[joebob]

Excellent info, where is a good cheap place to buy packing materials? You mentioned U-Haul for boxes, do they sell bubble wrap too? Great idea on covering the grill with plywood. This may be more of a hassle than it's worth, but i'll give it one shot on ebay. I had no bites on craigslist.

Dave

[muchxs]

Excellent info, where is a good cheap place to buy packing materials? You mentioned U-Haul for boxes, do they sell bubble wrap too? Great idea on covering the grill with plywood. This may be more of a hassle than it's worth, but i'll give it one shot on ebay. I had no bites on craigslist.

Most businesses consider styrofoam packing material to be a nuisance. Rubbish haulers don't like to mess with it because the peanuts blow out of the hopper on the garbage truck perhaps resulting in a substantial fine.

In our little town businesses bag their peanuts and drop them off at the local transfer station. They're up for grabs to anyone who sells online. There's actually competition locally to secure a supply of packing material but it all gets recycled, sometimes over and over. That's a good thing because our local office supply charges $16.00 for a large bag of fresh styrofoam packing material. Staples sells a little box of peanuts for top dollar. I forget what they charge and it doesn't matter, I get mine for nothing.

I don't like bubble wrap because enough impact breaks the bubbles. I wonder what happens to bubble wrap in an unpressurized cargo hold if your package ships Air Freight?

That said... the cheap source of mega bubble wrap... look up someone who sells canoes. They ship via freight entirely wrapped in bubble wrap. Enough to wrap a canoe should last you a while!

[sliberty]

Try Craig's List - if you get a buyer, you can avoid shipping altogether. But if you must go with eBay, double boxing is very safe. Just make sure that the inner box is a little larger than the amp, and use bubble wrap to pad it, then make sure that the outer box is a little larger than the inner box, and use bubble wrap or foam peanuts to pad it.

[doctord02]

Just be certain it will survive a 4 foot drop on a corner or edge. Thats requires more padding/bracing than people think. See if you can find the high density 2 inch foam corners that packing companies use to float your inner box inside your outer box...

[joebob]

Thanks for all the tips, I still haven't decided for sure. It seems like a great big hassle going through all that trouble. I did find a nice heavy box at the local UPS store, expensive I thought at $20. But it was double walled. I'll have to look for those corner pads, I am getting all kinds of good advice. I did try Craigslist, I have never sold anything there, I have bought stuff though. I have sold plenty on Ebay. Here's a pix of the amp. That pix doesn't do it justice, hand cut dovetails, beautiful finish.

Thanks, dave

[skyboltone]

Thanks for all the tips, I still haven't decided for sure. It seems like a great big hassle going through all that trouble. I did find a nice heavy box at the local UPS store, expensive I thought at $20. But it was double walled. I'll have to look for those corner pads, I am getting all kinds of good advice. I did try Craigslist, I have never sold anything there, I have bought stuff though. I have sold plenty on Ebay. Here's a pix of the amp. That pix doesn't do it justice, hand cut dovetails, beautiful finish.

Thanks, dave

Dont' underestimate the importance of the protection for the grill cloth. I've shipped cabinets that get there with the cloth stretched and bad looking.

[muchxs]

Thanks for all the tips, I still haven't decided for sure. It seems like a great big hassle going through all that trouble. I did find a nice heavy box at the local UPS store, expensive I thought at $20. But it was double walled.

Our local office supply has some outstanding boxes. Not the ones they sell, the ones they stack up out by the dumpster for the cardboard recycler. They sell Sharp copying machines, just about everything Sharp sells comes in a sturdy triple walled box. They're a little large for a Deluxe although a Deluxe Reverb or a Twin fits nicely. I don't like to pay to ship a bigger box than I need.

They also sell Hon office furniture. The double wall office chair boxes can be cut down to fit a 5E3 nicely.

I'm pretty good at cutting down boxes to get exactly the box I need. There's several tricks to it, I end up with a box that looks "manufactured". I'm pretty proud of my custom double and triple wall boxes.

[Stanz]

I ran a shipping dept for a couple years for shipping mechanical actuators weighing anywhere from 10 - 50 lbs, as well as huge precision tables that need to be crated. We also had numerous electronic controllers we shipped as well.

What I learned:

Immobilize the product. If your product is moving around inside the box, it will gain extra momentum, thus giving it the "punch" it needs to bust through the container. If your product is, oh let's say a guitar amp for instance, which has a couple heavy transformers, if your box comes to a sudden stop, like if it is dropped, those transformers will create a fair amount of force against those box walls.

Assume UPS will be tossing your package around like a football. This is not to disparage UPS handlers. How else do you think they get millions of packages moved each day. Putting a "Handle With Care - Fragile" sticker is basically a pretty dumb thing, don't bother. It is on you to package it correctly.

Prepare for the possibility that your box may be punctured. Not like a knife, meaning a long thin object penetrating deep into your package, but more like a corner from another box which may penetrate a couple inches in a wider area, or from being dropped, especially on a corner. The packaging/insulation you use to immobilize your product can also be used to protect for these sort of events. A single flat piece of cardboard (maybe even several) in front of a grill screen is a wise idea, maybe even a stick across the face of the cabinet/grill screen, securely attached to the cabinet, then a piece of cardboard over that will really insure you of protecting your grill screen.

Don't use styrofoam peanuts for heavy objects. The item being shipped will work its way to the bottom of the box and be vulnerable to damage as it is now right up against the outer wall. Plus, peanuts are just one big damn mess.

For a guitar amp I would definitely use thicker, heavy duty cardboard. Maybe even double walled.

How you seal the box is very important also. If you have a shipping stapler, use that. Tape will work, but remember that when your package gets slammed around, that amp with transformers will be punching the box, and the tape is your last defense in preventing it from popping out of the box. There are different thicknesses of tape. The thin stuff just will not work, you need the good stuff. Think duct tape.

Packing material can be foam, paper (yes paper, just crumble it up), bubblewrap, or styrofoam peanuts for smaller lighter items. The packing material needs to be tight so it will not compress anymore during shipping. They should also add a slight amount of give which helps act as a shock absorber. You also can mix packing materials. It doesn't have to be all one item. There are also custom solutions where you can have a company design a correct box size with matching corner foam pieces that allow the amp to be suspended in the middle of the box.

So basically, get a strong box that is big enough to cocoon the amp with your packaging material. You should have an extra 3 inches minimum of room on all six sides of the amp for insulation, and seal it securely so the amp does not escape. The amp will want to escape. That is what anything that is stuck in a box will want to do, get the hell out, so you have to make sure it stays put. That should reduce your odds of an accident down to about one in a million.

[muchxs]

Assume UPS will be tossing your package around like a football. This is not to disparage UPS handlers. How else do you think they get millions of packages moved each day. Putting a "Handle With Care - Fragile" sticker is basically a pretty dumb thing, don't bother. It is on you to package it correctly.

Most of the handling isn't by hand, parcels are sorted using conveyor belts. The packages tumble around with other packages on the belts. Worst case... your amp meets up with something heavy that's in a crate or tumbles off the belt and on to the concrete floor.

Don't use styrofoam peanuts for heavy objects. The item being shipped will work its way to the bottom of the box and be vulnerable to damage as it is now right up against the outer wall. Plus, peanuts are just one big damn mess.

O.k., but if the amp is immobile in the package then nothing can move. Yes the peanuts will flow somewhat, as long as there's no voids there's nowhere for the packing material to go. It's immobile too.

For a guitar amp I would definitely use thicker, heavy duty cardboard. Maybe even double walled.

No doubt. Remember that the boxes fatigue, that means by the time the box has been recycled a couple times it's pretty much spent.

How you seal the box is very important also. If you have a shipping stapler, use that. Tape will work, but remember that when your package gets slammed around, that amp with transformers will be punching the box, and the tape is your last defense in preventing it from popping out of the box. There are different thicknesses of tape. The thin stuff just will not work, you need the good stuff. Think duct tape.

Umm... don't think duct tape. I think UPS will refuse a parcel if it's sealed with duct tape. The Post Office still has packages sealed with excess tape or duct tape on their watch list of potential terrorist threats, they look for too much tape, odd stains or powder and no return address among other things. If you want ultra slow shipping just pack so the parcel is diverted and torn down for inspection, that can hold things up for an extra week to ten days.

Fiber reinforced tape is the super heavy duty way to seal a package. I avoid staples for two reasons, one, all the carriers reserve the right to open and inspect packages. A stapled parcel is more difficult to re-seal if it has been inspected. I'd hate to pull an amp out of a package and snag it on a staple. I don't like snagging myself on staples.

Packing material can be foam, paper (yes paper, just crumble it up), bubblewrap, or styrofoam peanuts for smaller lighter items..

Crumpled paper is compressible. Your heavy amp... packed in a sturdy carton... will act like a garbage compactor. Keep that in mind.

When I cut a box down I'm left with extra panels of double walled cardboard. They can be used as baffles within the packing material to make it less compressible. They're also handy to double up the box, double wall plus double wall means that an impact will have to compromise four layers of cardboard before it can do damage. Double wall plus triple wall borders on ridiculous, that's the best you can do short of a crate.

[bnwitt]

I have shipped so many 5E3's I can't count them all. Styrofoam sheets and double boxing is the only way to go. Thick cardboard or thin plywood to protect the grill cloth is essential. Fill the amp cavity with newspaper or bubble wrap. Wrap the tubes in bubble wrap and box them separately to be put in the amp cavity with the packing. Fedex for sure if you can and insure it. If you use UPS, make them pack it and insure it. If you pack it and they break it they'll say you didn't pack it correctly and won't honor the insurance. Trust me I know.

[Stanz]

Stanz wrote:
Assume UPS will be tossing your package around like a football. This is not to disparage UPS handlers. How else do you think they get millions of packages moved each day. Putting a "Handle With Care - Fragile" sticker is basically a pretty dumb thing, don't bother. It is on you to package it correctly.


Most of the handling isn't by hand, parcels are sorted using conveyor belts. The packages tumble around with other packages on the belts. Worst case... your amp meets up with something heavy that's in a crate or tumbles off the belt and on to the concrete floor.

This isn't meant to be a literal description, it is meant to convey the message and implant the image of your package getting tossed around like a football and protect it accordingly. And yes, packages are handled by hand, that is how a truck is loaded, and where most damage can occur.

Stanz wrote:
Don't use styrofoam peanuts for heavy objects. The item being shipped will work its way to the bottom of the box and be vulnerable to damage as it is now right up against the outer wall. Plus, peanuts are just one big damn mess.


O.k., but if the amp is immobile in the package then nothing can move. Yes the peanuts will flow somewhat, as long as there's no voids there's nowhere for the packing material to go. It's immobile too.

OK, but I am simply passing on my experience where I have seen boxes packed with styrofoam peanuts and even though it was packed tightly, the items inside shift to the bottom, especially heavier ones. Living in an earthquake area, we have something called liquefaction. That is where ground with lots of sand or silt can become very unstable when vibrated. When your package is filled with peanuts, no matter how tight they are, if it is vibrated or shook, the item inside will settle. Plus, they make a damn big mess.

Stanz wrote:
How you seal the box is very important also. If you have a shipping stapler, use that. Tape will work, but remember that when your package gets slammed around, that amp with transformers will be punching the box, and the tape is your last defense in preventing it from popping out of the box. There are different thicknesses of tape. The thin stuff just will not work, you need the good stuff. Think duct tape.


Umm... don't think duct tape. I think UPS will refuse a parcel if it's sealed with duct tape.

Once again, this is meant to convey an image, that is why I said "Think duct tape". Sorry if that sent a mixed message. Most guys can relate to duct tape. I think it is a genetic thing. No where in there did I say use duct tape. You are looking for something with that tinsel strength though.

I think you are mixing your package carriers. UPS is a private company and even after 9/11, I never had a package opened to be inspected when shipped within the US, going through customs is whole different ball of wax. The US Postal Service on the other hand, is a sort-of government entity which carries all the paranoia associated with our leaders. It does not matter if it is staples or tape, if they open your box, you have a problem and are at their mercy in trusting that they will reseal it well. For a package larger that 1 sq foot, UPS would be my preferred currier, as that is what they do well, move packages as opposed to letters, not that they can't, it is just not their strong point.

I have used shipping staples, and merely passing on my experience that it is the best way to seal a box. It also requires getting the appropriate tools.

Crumpled paper is compressible. Your heavy amp... packed in a sturdy carton... will act like a garbage compactor. Keep that in mind.

Yes, very good point. I believe I mentioned that the packing needs to be tight so as to immobilize your product.

[muchxs]

I think you are mixing your package carriers. UPS is a private company and even after 9/11, I never had a package opened to be inspected when shipped within the US, going through customs is whole different ball of wax. The US Postal Service on the other hand, is a sort-of government entity which carries all the paranoia associated with our leaders. It does not matter if it is staples or tape, if they open your box, you have a problem and are at their mercy in trusting that they will reseal it well. For a package larger that 1 sq foot, UPS would be my preferred currier, as that is what they do well, move packages as opposed to letters, not that they can't, it is just not their strong point.

Worthy of discussion... FedEx believe it or not has pseudo-governmental roots as well. According to the urban legend FedEx was created to deliver goverment payrolls, they were conceived as a private contractor to handle govenment payrolls. They also handle a good bit of mail under contract to the Post Office. It's like GEICO, that stands for Government Employee Insurance Company. Originally conceived to insure government employees their little lizard will sell insurance to anyone now. Off-topic of course...

Both Fedex and UPS move freight largely by truck although they both have air freight operations. ICC (ground transport) regulations are such that they face a stiff fine if they get caught carrying something they're not supposed to, flammable or hazmat tops the list. They'll hande it, they charge dearly and it's legit if the proper placard is displayed on the trailer. Policy wise they're different in their approach, UPS apparently can't be bothered to inspect packages once they accept them but they have been known to jerk customers around at the counter. FedEx IMHO is a little more cautious about what they handle. They won't comfirm or deny that they tear down and inspect parcels only that they reserve the right to do so. FedEx looks more towards what that FAA allows and doesn't allow in air freight, for instance a speaker with a heavy magnet won't bother a truck but a compass will point straight at it. I guess they fly by LORAN.