First Stage Filtering

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ayan
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by ayan »

ElectronAvalanche wrote:Hi Gil,

thanks for the pic.

What OT did this amp have? What was the B+?

I see that the amp in the pic you posted had the same preamp can filter cap as the Kimock amp. Is that a 15uF or 20uF can cap?

I see the NFB is 4k7 in this amp. Did you measure the NFB cap? Oddly enough that is a Tantal cap not the usual electrolytic. I wonder how that changes the character of the NFB and Presence sound.

I wonder why Dumble went up to 150uF (in sum) on the 1st filter section.

Cheers,

Dominik
B+ was around 465 VDC, IIRC. All of those amps had the can cap there, as far as I'ver seen. NFB cap was 1uF and he used tants in the FET circuit as well on this amp; for what it's worth, I've seen tants in at least another amp. I used them myself in the NFB loop and didn't seem to make any difference to me -- but, I use the presence control below 2 o 'clock anyway, which is when things start to happen in my amps.

Why did he go up? I guess he wanted more punch out of his amps, that's all I can think. He used the 300uF caps in at least one 50W amp I saw of that same era.

PT was Fender twin style, as was choke. OT was ??, had dull silver end bells. Cap cap was 2x 10uF @500VDC.

Gil
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Funkalicousgroove
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by Funkalicousgroove »

Dull silver round end bells is a shumacher
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ayan
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by ayan »

Funkalicousgroove wrote:Dull silver round end bells is a shumacher
That's exactly what it was! Good, bad? I have no experience with them.

Gil
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by Funkalicousgroove »

Stock fender twin/showman/dual showman. Sound great! Paper interleaved and all that. From what I understand when Fender went to the schumachers from the Triads they did so to save money. Everyone I talk to that winds Trannies says that the Triads that were in tweed fenders were of MUCH better quality, but beauty is in the ear of the beholder!
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jelle
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by jelle »

Hi Gil,

Thanks for sharing all this info with us. There's a lot I learned from your older posts on tube amps, and it's nice to see your name again!
Do you have more pictures of this amp?

I also read that there's a schematic that you posted but I can't seem to find it...

I started a new thread on power supply design to discuss the big caps.

Jelle,

The netherlands
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ayan
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by ayan »

jelle wrote:Hi Gil,

Thanks for sharing all this info with us. There's a lot I learned from your older posts on tube amps, and it's nice to see your name again!
Do you have more pictures of this amp?

I also read that there's a schematic that you posted but I can't seem to find it...

I started a new thread on power supply design to discuss the big caps.

Jelle,

The netherlands
Hi Jelle and thanks for the nice words. I actually haven't posted any Dumble schematics; what I posted, long time ago, were Boogie schematics of some Mark I mods I did many years ago, which some people implemented as well. Perhaps you're thinking about that?

I said that I would be making available some material I've collected over the years. However, coordination to make that happen without upsetting some friends is not going as easily as I would have anticipated, so that project is on hold for the time being.

Cheers,

Gil
BobW
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by BobW »

Ayan, fwiw, the signal level into the amp was typical of my guitar (strat), not humbuckers. I also don't use stomp pedals or any thing else to boost the gain out of the comfort zone, as you suggsted. My scope observations were a fair measurement to the OD gain settings I chose and prefer, and obviously didn't crank everything to 10 as most don't.
It's possible to create the sag and develop a crunch tone if that's what you want. However, using low ESR caps such as the Nichicons will help reduce sag, again if that's what the builder wants.

cheers
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jelle
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by jelle »

Hi Gil,

Guess I just misread it...sorry.

It would be nice if you could make some material available, but friendships are worth a lot! Certainly more than an amp to me.

I read that you sold a few amps and that you are planning to build another one.

What kind of amp are you planning to build next?


Bobw wrote:
However, using low ESR caps such as the Nichicons will help reduce sag, again if that's what the builder wants.

ESR means Equivalent sum resistors, right? Isn't that the resistance the AC current sees? Is this a parameter for the time the cap needs to drain/ deliver current?
I have to admid that my memory isn't the best but I read some time ago that the ESR of the current production caps is much lower than the '60's caps.

If this is so, what happens when caps are totempoled? ERS goes up, more sag?

Jelle
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by Funkalicousgroove »

ESR= Effective Series Resistance.
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jazzyjoepass
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by jazzyjoepass »

Sorry, just want to try to steer topic towards the totem pole thing.

Anybody measured the voltage drop across each capacitor in a totem config?

Seems that the voltages are not equal even with the resistors across the caps. The top cap always gets the larger charge than the bottom one.

Anyone can confirm for me? Mines around 360V on the top cap and 100V on the bottom cap.

Interesting eh?
dogears
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by dogears »

JazzyJoe...

Email me regarding the RF/LC thing.

;)
groovtubin
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by groovtubin »

ayan wrote:
ElectronAvalanche wrote:Hi Gil,

thanks for the pic.

What OT did this amp have? What was the B+?

I see that the amp in the pic you posted had the same preamp can filter cap as the Kimock amp. Is that a 15uF or 20uF can cap?

I see the NFB is 4k7 in this amp. Did you measure the NFB cap? Oddly enough that is a Tantal cap not the usual electrolytic. I wonder how that changes the character of the NFB and Presence sound.

I wonder why Dumble went up to 150uF (in sum) on the 1st filter section.

Cheers,

Dominik
B+ was around 465 VDC, IIRC. All of those amps had the can cap there, as far as I'ver seen. NFB cap was 1uF and he used tants in the FET circuit as well on this amp; for what it's worth, I've seen tants in at least another amp. I used them myself in the NFB loop and didn't seem to make any difference to me -- but, I use the presence control below 2 o 'clock anyway, which is when things start to happen in my amps.

Why did he go up? I guess he wanted more punch out of his amps, that's all I can think. He used the 300uF caps in at least one 50W amp I saw of that same era.

PT was Fender twin style, as was choke. OT was ??, had dull silver end bells. Cap cap was 2x 10uF @500VDC.

Gil
Gil, w/what little i know @ power supplys, i do know this, LOOSENING up the PREAMP w/10uf`s has to play a part in the "give up the goods" Mike Soldano does the same thing in a SLO. HUGE filtered power supply, and a rather small filtered preamp section, loose greasy gain, yet punchy and huge bottom end, lovely! Your thoughts? jim
BobW
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by BobW »

Hi Jelle, ESR is Equivalent Series Resistance. This parameter is used to determine the ripple current rating of the cap, or how well and how much it will it filter and smooth out the ac component. This is usually rated at 100kHz, way too high for our use, but it gives a good indication how well the cap is built and will perform. Here's more info, on the subject, probably enough to cure insomnia. :lol: http://xtronics.com/reference/esr.htm
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ayan
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by ayan »

I’ll try to answer a few of the points made in one single post, hope it doesn’t make things too confusing.
BobW wrote: Ayan, fwiw, the signal level into the amp was typical of my guitar (strat), not humbuckers. I also don't use stomp pedals or any thing else to boost the gain out of the comfort zone, as you suggsted. My scope observations were a fair measurement to the OD gain settings I chose and prefer, and obviously didn't crank everything to 10 as most don't.
I think we’re saying the same thing, basically. You said everything looked fine, and as it turns out you tried the amp under reasonable conditions. I had said that if you cranked everything up, you would see how the 100uF VS 22uF cap choice will have an effect of the amount of ripple present riding on the signal at the speaker output. So I think both of our statements are inclusive of each other. :) As for the volume the amps are played at, I agree, and I never set everything on 10 myself. However, I know some people that do; while I am not sure I understand why that is a necessity to them, it is, so there are cases where the consideration to use a beefier power supply has to be made.
jelle wrote:Hi Gil,
Guess I just misread it...sorry.

It would be nice if you could make some material available, but friendships are worth a lot! Certainly more than an amp to me.

I read that you sold a few amps and that you are planning to build another one.

What kind of amp are you planning to build next?
Jelle, it seems that you know more about me than I. :o When I am supposed to build another amp? I'd like to know so that I can schedule the rest of my life accordingly. :mrgreen: I think one likely scenario is that I buy a Vox AC30CC amp next.
jazzyjoepass wrote:Sorry, just want to try to steer topic towards the totem pole thing.

Anybody measured the voltage drop across each capacitor in a totem config?

Seems that the voltages are not equal even with the resistors across the caps. The top cap always gets the larger charge than the bottom one.

Anyone can confirm for me? Mines around 360V on the top cap and 100V on the bottom cap.

Interesting eh?
Jazzyjoepass, are you talking about the voltage drop across each cap (so the top cap voltage is not refrenced to ground)? If so, there is definitely something not right with your power supply. Have you measured your resistors? Either they are not the same, or one of your caps has goone seriously bad on you. The totem-pole voltage will not be identical, as the resistors used are usually 5% tolerance, and then there is the ESR of the cap in parallel with each resistor, so they may be say within 10%. But if you're getting such a tremendous difference in voltage drop, it means something is way off, and I would recommend you have a close look ASAP.
groovtubin wrote:Gil, w/what little i know @ power supplys, i do know this, LOOSENING up the PREAMP w/10uf`s has to play a part in the "give up the goods" Mike Soldano does the same thing in a SLO. HUGE filtered power supply, and a rather small filtered preamp section, loose greasy gain, yet punchy and huge bottom end, lovely! Your thoughts? jim
Jim, I think what Soldano does allows him to have a ripple-free B+ voltage, since he has ample filtering up front, so there will be no sag in that amp. The fact that he uses 10uF downstream is only half of the picture, since the dropping resistor that preceeds a cap to ground will -- along with the cap -- set the break point of the low pass filter the two of them form. So, for example and only theoretically, a 10uF cap to ground following a 22K dropping resistor would give the same filtering as a 22uF cap to ground following a 10K resistor. However, using a larger series resistor will drop the B+ voltage more, which will yield a lower plate voltage on the tube giving a browner sound. I'm not familair with the Soldano sound too much, and I don't know what amp you're referring to. I like the SLOs I use to hear as played by Clapton, Gary Moore, etc. They sounded good, punchy and on the bright side -- I like bright, for what it's worth.

Cheers,

Gil
BobW
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Re: First Stage Filtering

Post by BobW »

Gil, Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. I really love this board, no flames, just a big happy group where we can all learn from each other.

Cheers,
Bob
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