Takman resistors

[Colossal]

Good to know.

So how do you measure "punch"?

RG,

Respectfully, I'd like to ask you to kindly desist. Ampbuilding is as much art as it is science. At this point, everyone knows that you do not believe in the sound of resistors and capacitors. That's fine. But please kindly stop hopping into every thread where others solicit opinions, comments, and experience from every perspective and attacking the opinions and experiences of others with snarky comments. You have a lot to offer and generously do so. Please let it be civility and tolerance along with your great wealth of electronics knowledge.

Thank you for your consideration.

[martin manning]

You might miss a little hiss because it acts like analog dithering...

This would make sense if the output is going to be digitized, i.e. if you are running it into a DAW.

They make an amp stout and punchy . Clean and clear. Very noticeable, especially if you were to swap them all with another brand within the same amplifier.

Oh, kewl!!
How exactly does one measure stout, punchy, clean, and clear?
Are "stout", "punchy", "clean" and "clear" binary conditions, as in an amp is either completely stout or completely not stout, nothing in between? Or can an amp be 0.75 Stout?
Is the resistor brand change independent of everything else? For instance, will a JBL speaker make the amp "stout" and a Celestion less "stout" (or not-stout, depending on whether stout is binary or analog)?
How exactly would one construct a punch-o-meter?

I'm going to defend the "if it isn't measurable, it isn't there" position, but tempered to "if it isn't measurable, it might be there." I have wondered about the effect of noise on human psycho-acoustic perception of sound, i.e. does musical sound that includes some noise sound "better" than it does with an absence of noise. If anyone can hear differences in resistors, noise appears to be the only possible source. There is a faction that believes using different brands of resistors can make a significant difference in sound, maybe even a make or break difference. I'm not there, not even close, and I'm not convinced that using CC, CF, or MF makes any difference other than noise level.

Another thing I've wondered about is, is WhopperPlate trolling R.G. and the other non-believers here? Should he get a warning from the moderator?

[Colossal]

I'm going to defend the "if it isn't measurable, it isn't there" position, but tempered to "if it isn't measurable, it might be there." I have wondered about the effect of noise on human psycho-acoustic perception of sound, i.e. does musical sound that includes some noise sound "better" than it does with an absence of noise. If anyone can hear differences in resistors, noise appears to be the only possible source. There is a faction that believes using different brands of resistors can make a significant difference in sound, maybe even a make or break difference. I'm not there, not even close, and I'm not convinced that using CC, CF, or MF makes any difference other than noise level.

Another thing I've wondered about is, is WhopperPlate trolling R.G. and the other non-believers here? Should he get a warning from the moderator?

Martin, I think the perception of Shot and Johnson noise and the degree thereof is what gives parts "a sound". I know I heard a very clear difference when I repIaced an Auricap with a Sozo on a Tweed Deluxe in the V1 coupling position. I didn't ask to hear it, but there it was. Dielectric strength is different for different plastics, so shouldn't they impart different qualities, some of which might be audible? Four hundred years ago you could get burned for stating the Earth wasn't the center of the known universe, now the Church is willing to acknowledge that life elsewhere is not in conflict with Christ being the savior. No one here is a heretic. Part of science is not being close-minded to possibility.

I'm reminded of the adage that says: a guy walks into a music store, picks up a $199 Squier strat and plays. Then he asks the proprietor to play the $4,700 Custom Shop strat behind the counter. After playing, he hands it back saying "I don't hear a difference, so why is this one so expensive?" The proprietor says "well, if you don't hear a difference, there must not be one".

If RG feels compelled to prove parts don't have a sound, then he should have at it. But WhopperPlate isn't wrong for stating what he hears, nor should he get badgered every time he answers someone's question or comments on perceived differences. We might all laugh at the hi-fi guys for paying $117 for a teflon/tin foil cap, but they probably laugh at us thinking some antique Champ moldering in grandma's attic is worth any more than the original price.

I'll just shut up and play my guitar.

[R.G.]

If RG feels compelled to prove parts don't have a sound, then he should have at it. But WhopperPlate isn't wrong for stating what he hears, nor should he get badgered every time he answers someone's question or comments on perceived differences.

Oh, some components do have sounds - well, OK, quirks in creating distortion and/or odd effects on frequency response - and it's both measurable and reproduceable.

I should clarify. It is absolutely OK for Whop to say something like "... to me ... X Brand resistors make an amp sound like lingonberries with tahini" or whatever. His opinion on what he likes is his; I'm a big supporter of de gustibus non est disputandem. If his statements said something like "TO MY EARS, " or "I SEEM TO HEAR..." it would not even crest the surface of the general tone-buzz.

What sets me off is the assertion that a brand name <something> will always make an amp sound like <something unquantifiable>. It's simply logically wrong. Brand names are made-up labels for whatever the marketing department thinks will sell more. There is no consistent connection between brand name and what you actually get.

Beyond that, resistors do a whole lot of things inside an amp, not least of which is voicing - using resistor value to set/tweak frequency response to what the designer wanted. Changing the resistor value of a resistor in the cathode circuit of a triode input can have a dramatic effect on the input channel's sound. How much would changing the >brand< of those resistors, but not the resistive value would make the whole amp sound somehow different.

And it's stated as a fact, and supported by a claim of long expertise - we all aspire to experience and skill - but no idea how it might work, even an inkling of an idea how to capture this effect so it could be used reliably; or what "punch" or whatever actually means.

I keep hoping that we can have a factual, not shaman-istic, discussion of the effects of components on sound. That's how we learn.

[martin manning]

I'm for letting the discussion continue, unless it gets nasty, but stating opinions or personal perceptions as fact is non-scientific, inflammatory, and miss-informing. I agree with R.G. on that point.

I think the perception of Shot and Johnson noise and the degree thereof is what gives parts "a sound". I know I heard a very clear difference when I repIaced an Auricap with a Sozo on a Tweed Deluxe in the V1 coupling position. I didn't ask to hear it, but there it was. Dielectric strength is different for different plastics, so shouldn't they impart different qualities, some of which might be audible?

Hearing a difference in capacitors is plausible, likely even, as there are lots of things going on with the different dielectric types. People always seem to bring up capacitors in discussions about the sound of resistors, but they are very different things.

It's just noise with resistors. The other parasitics are negligible at audio frequencies. It's almost certain that different brands will have different noise levels, and generally CF are noisier than MF, but there is overlap. I'm open to the idea that noise imposed upon an audio signal might change its perceived sound in some way, but differences between brands of the same type of film seems unlikely to be perceptible by humans.

[Reeltarded]

You might miss a little hiss because it acts like analog dithering...

This would make sense if the output is going to be digitized, i.e. if you are running it into a DAW.

Yes, but rarely a perfect analogy. There are compressors and mic amps that "sweeten" a sound. It's audible. It's in the hiss. Even using the insert return on a big Neve at the sidecar imparts the spacial aspect of the console without passing through a channel or bussing. That is basically a passive circuit that only uses the output section. It sounds like one reality where it hits the insert, and is projected into another reality with a spacial shift. The hiss changes. Just plugging into a Langevin passive and defeating all controls is like the best trick, ever. Maybe it's a pseudo inductance on an astral plane.

There are guys who pay Brad Blackwood thousands just to have their program run through his passive console with everything defeated! We call these people "Grammy Winners".

And I totally agree on the similar film at identical measurements, but once you have a second phase, a single unit or amp or whatever can sound perfectly same, yet there is a slight change that would only be detected in a phase flip comparison. You would never hear the slight difference, but you might perceive it.

[WhopperPlate]

Another thing I've wondered about is, is WhopperPlate trolling R.G. and the other non-believers here? Should he get a warning from the moderator?

I am genuinely saddened by this suggestion . If you wonder why my posts are less frequent on here no one need look any further than this.

Edit - practically every sound I have ever described is based on my observations, according “to my ears”. This is a given. There are at least two twenty page back and forth discussions with RG somewhere where I have made this abundantly clear. Maybe it’s selective hearing . Beyond that, I would never assume anyone would assume I meant anything else when I say anything about sonic characteristics of anything, unless I have explicitly said otherwise.

[R.G.]

practically every sound I have ever described is based on my observations, according “to my ears”. This is a given. There are at least two twenty page back and forth discussions with RG somewhere where I have made this abundantly clear. Maybe it’s selective hearing . Beyond that, I would never assume anyone would assume I meant anything else when I say anything about sonic characteristics of anything, unless I have explicitly said otherwise.

Yes, you have made that clear. It would help me tremendously if you would say something like "In my opinion" before you state your opinion as a fact.

Could you please stop stating an opinion as a fact? If, as you say, you would never assume that anyone would assume you meant anything else, then say that. It's not just me that reads your statements on resistor brand implying a certain amp sound as you holding it up as a stone-cold fact. The history has been that you will defend your position that resistor brand implies tone, but don't offer any supporting facts that any uninvolved observer could test.

Collossal says

But WhopperPlate isn't wrong for stating what he hears, nor should he get badgered every time he answers someone's question or comments on perceived differences.

Read the history carefully. He's not wrong for stating what he hears. No one else on the planet can hear what he hears, so he cannot be proven wrong on that.
Stating that what he hears is what someone else will hear is clearly false by the same reasoning; unless there is some test that's not Whopper's ears that shows the same thing.

As to badgering; I think that many people read here to learn how to repair, modify and create their own sounds. Teaching them something that is pure opinion, unsupported by testing, is doing them a disservice. Opinion should be clearly marked as "This may or may not work; it's just what I think, and what has worked for me."

[WhopperPlate]

Yes, you have made that clear.

Then let’s please stop doing this

It would help me tremendously if you would say something like "In my opinion" before you state your opinion as a fact.

But I thought it was clear that what I say is inherently an opinion?

Could you please stop stating an opinion as a fact? If, as you say, you would never assume that anyone would assume you meant anything else, then say that.

But I thought I made myself “clear” (?) that’s not what I am doing.

It's not just me that reads your statements on resistor brand implying a certain amp sound as you holding it up as a stone-cold fact.

If these people read my comments as critically as yourself I would be amazed if it wasn’t “clear” to them as well by now

The history has been that you will defend your position that resistor brand implies tone, but don't offer any supporting facts that any uninvolved observer could test.

Let’s be fair , I have been far more nuanced in my observations than simply stating brand implies tone. My attempts to deliver to you every disclaimer of my perspectives and how I have reached my conclusions has to fallen on deaf ears, and I honestly am amazed that we are still doing this.

As already mentioned , anyone can look up the previous discussions where I desperately try to communicate with you every which way my own limitations while imploring that no one take my opinions as gospel in any light.

Read the history carefully.

I beg and plead that you do

As to badgering; I think that many people read here to learn how to repair, modify and create their own sounds. Teaching them something that is pure opinion, unsupported by testing, is doing them a disservice. Opinion should be clearly marked as "This may or may not work; it's just what I think, and what has worked for me."

As I have stated in all of that historical documentation, taking similar advice from others is how I have reached my own perspectives , and specifically by trying things for myself , as I have emphasized everyone else do as well.

I thank and commend every last person who has done me the service of sharing their opinion, and has helped me along the way. God bless you all.

Ladies and gentlemen, all due respect to everyone, this will be the last time I attempt to defend myself on this matter, and I will not be wasting anyone’s time further by pointing out all I have stated more times than I can remember . Much love to you all and I look forward to hearing the opinions you share . Thank heavens for the amp garage . Good night

[R.G.]

It's OK. I have archived this discussion, so I can annotate any further confusing posts with the real stuff, as approved by you. Go in peace.

[dragonbat13]

So the leads will span a full width marshall 2204 build?

I'll have to look into them if they are strong enough.
That's one of my biggest concerns, the thin leads would vibrate and maybe break over time. It's one reason I wanted to stick to eyelets over turrets.

And I believe the noise in a high gain amp is a factor. The beginning of for unlawful carnal knowledge actually emphasizes the amp noise when the drill comes in at the beginning. And I watched a Slash Godfather solo where the amp noise made the performance more impressive. It gave that feeling of a "wall of Marshalls" in that one.



And I felt guilty for asking about my trem section in a Princeton reverb thread someone else created. Lol.

Y'all behave. This is one of the last websites I know of that hasn't been ruined by know it all internet Nazis. A highly regarded amplifier building sight with a lot of very talented people. I hope it stays like that.

[wpaulvogel]

I would like to interject that I have many different component choices on hand when I build an amp for a customer and my opinion is that I have difficulty hearing any differences between the Piher, Iskra or modern Xicon resistors. Also the same applies to the Mullard mustard capacitor vs Sozo, or other modern coupling capacitors. The Mullard I61 ECC83 though to my ears is the sweetest sounding preamp tube useable in my amps and I’ll stand on that opinion. Mullard XF1 and XF2 EL34’s unfortunately don’t do anything for me and I prefer Tung Sol EL34B’s. The noise floor in my amps is quiet as compared to other similar circuits and I credit that to lead dress and grounding scheme and I almost want to state that this is fact but once again it’s a subjective opinion that I’ll never be able to quantify because I won’t build my amps any other way than what I already do and taking four of my amps and inspecting them will render their lead dress as most commonly identical because I have a sample that I compare to as I build and my wire lengths are cut to specific lengths before routing because I think it’s important to have them all display as equally beautiful.

[Reeltarded]

Have I mentioned I am using captures instead of amps now? Tonex is superior, but you have to run two because of switching pauses.

PS: Yes the Takmans are long and heavy leads.

IMG_3649.jpeg

[lonote]

I will say upfront that I don't really buy into the "sound" of various components, mostly as I can't hear a difference, even when intently listening, much less when playing in the context of a band.

That said, I CAN believe there might be a measurable difference in how signal passes through/around a component, which to my thinking, would infer, that maybe there actually is something to it, but likely so small as to be inaudible. So I can't really say....

But not to fan the flames (maybe just a little ), I have never seen any discussion regarding any (real or perceived) sonic properties of potentiometers. We have the signal running right through most of them, from one side to the other.

I would have to guess there are electrical differences between the available brands; the design & materials used, supporting components & level of manufacture.

[Reeltarded]

Hey. We have a trouble maker. ^^^^^