Non-NOS component choices

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bepone
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by bepone »

i have done one test, took one afternoon , the same amp recapped on all positions from beginning to the end with 10 different cap manufacturers..NOS/vin tage. not mixed, the same brand series by time. 1. 6PS's, after 2. mustards..3. MKPs iskra, 4. MKTs iskra, 5. 715 orange drops, 6. sozo older..7. panasonic new production.. etc etc..

then after the test (clean +overdrive observation) i put remarks in my book. there was clear difference , not subtle and no needed to do any "blind test" to understand what material was better and what was unacepptable. you can hear and feel immediately on fingers during playing.


it was for my curiosity and to find out if i can pass with the tons of vintage caps what i have on stock to use them on something! i became fan for the vintage Arcotronics KP series which i never used before.
so one can play with caps, resistors, it is not forbidden

IMO the people who claim that all components sound the same or are not experienced, or didnt make not even 5 amplifiers in the life or are too old and passive to care for any change :P
ChopSauce
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by ChopSauce »

I don't care about people negating the experiences of others by default, & I definitely would like to know some more about your notes ... 8)
(especially about modern production/non NOS items)
brewdude
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by brewdude »

I am also more interested in current production components then NOS—simply because they are available and obtainable.

I have less of an grasp on the effect of resistor differences, but tend to believe that, in grossly oversimplified general terms, metal films are likely to be less noisy and maybe more clear or less warm? I recently bought some cheap resistor kits of Amazon. I have not had any issues, but…?

As for caps, I have switched through a few differing brands and tend to prefer 6PS OD’s more often than not. I tend to think the Mallory 150’a sound dull and fuzzy, and the 715 OD’s are too bright and sterile.

I have recently used Blue Sozo’s in an amp and think they sound pretty good—they seem very clear, yet not brittle.

I realize that all this is terribly subjective and my experience is quite limited, but I would also be interest in others opinions of modernly accessible components. Are there brands/models I’m ignorant of from venders I may be unaware of?
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bepone
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by bepone »

my findings: 10 pcs od 6PS in the amp, clean plus drive section leads to harsh sound quite opposite from global opinion), bell like clean but maybe too much for overdrive.

mustards vintage caps (dark sounding)+ piher carbon film (dark sounding) in combination through the amp on all positions leads to mud.. not ok, passing only for the jazz,..good because pihers are expensive i can pass over and save the money !

sozo, too smoooth for the clean (need litle bit of sparkle) but the best when overdriven, spectacular effects,
notes rotate in overdrive, small chorus is formed, not harsh at all, distortion produced stays in the middles, not going to glass cutting overdrive!

i like 6PS combined with sozo some magic effect are produced.
then there is neutral sounding caps like Cornell DME, with them i didnt recognize some negative effects..

im returning now as much as possible to polypropilenes inside the amp to achieve controled presence (not too much but still acceptable) , mixed with poliester.. output from the PI for polypropylene and some positions in tone controls too ! now investigating differences between axial and block types .

all through the amp wima fkp, polypropylene blocks, amp is totally harsh and can be used only live, because in the room you are loosing hearing from the high tones produced :twisted:

all this story is too complex to understand easily , we have many cumulative stages here and so cumulative effects, we have different DC and AC voltages on the capacitors, we have resistors to produce distortion (2H is increasing with the voltage on carbon comp resistors) etc. what is important. you need to listen the sound! it is faster than making FFT analysis and trying to understand which harmonic is good and which isnt..and find the cure to balance the amp! it is also a nice adventure (sometimes painful to get the results :lol: :twisted: )

this is changing the sound with thw passive conponents , we can start a novel for the output transformers and tubes too but life is too short :lol: :lol:
talbany
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by talbany »

bepone wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:53 am my findings: 10 pcs od 6PS in the amp, clean plus drive section leads to harsh sound quite opposite from global opinion), bell like clean but maybe too much for overdrive.

mustards vintage caps (dark sounding)+ piher carbon film (dark sounding) in combination through the amp on all positions leads to mud.. not ok, passing only for the jazz,..good because pihers are expensive i can pass over and save the money !

sozo, too smoooth for the clean (need litle bit of sparkle) but the best when overdriven, spectacular effects,
notes rotate in overdrive, small chorus is formed, not harsh at all, distortion produced stays in the middles, not going to glass cutting overdrive!

i like 6PS combined with sozo some magic effect are produced.
then there is neutral sounding caps like Cornell DME, with them i didnt recognize some negative effects..

im returning now as much as possible to polypropilenes inside the amp to achieve controled presence (not too much but still acceptable) , mixed with poliester.. output from the PI for polypropylene and some positions in tone controls too ! now investigating differences between axial and block types .

all through the amp wima fkp, polypropylene blocks, amp is totally harsh and can be used only live, because in the room you are loosing hearing from the high tones produced :twisted:

all this story is too complex to understand easily , we have many cumulative stages here and so cumulative effects, we have different DC and AC voltages on the capacitors, we have resistors to produce distortion (2H is increasing with the voltage on carbon comp resistors) etc. what is important. you need to listen the sound! it is faster than making FFT analysis and trying to understand which harmonic is good and which isnt..and find the cure to balance the amp! it is also a nice adventure (sometimes painful to get the results :lol: :twisted: )

this is changing the sound with thw passive conponents , we can start a novel for the output transformers and tubes too but life is too short :lol: :lol:
Bepone
Thanks for the write up on the different NOS parts..Always interested in hearing others opinions on the subject :wink:

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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bepone
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by bepone »

no problem im looking that like gastronomy, it is like cooking the sauce :P in hifi is difficult to find differences because of only two stages in the amp, one coupling cap! but in guitar world it is cumulative and making guitar amp is like the art, you have zillion options to express it!

after reading here i decided to buy all the draloric values what is possoble to find on the net :lol: to make one amp with them, i didnt use them before,.. and the same time will do other with the green iskra metal films which are state of the art of vintage industrial /medical/telecom/ components but i didnt use them often in gutar world! i have tons and tons waiting in the line..
boards will be intercheangable so i can find differences in few hours, will be nice winter time i can see allready :mrgreen:
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FUCHSAUDIO
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by FUCHSAUDIO »

Despite many companies exporting amps with the Dale RN65 resistors in them, as of today, they do still not appear to be RoHs compliant.

https://www.mouser.com/c/?q=dale%20RN65%20resistor
Proud holder of US Patent # 7336165.
WhopperPlate
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by WhopperPlate »

brewdude wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:10 pm I am also more interested in current production components then NOS—simply because they are available and obtainable.
+1000000
Charlie
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by WhopperPlate »

You know recently I was putting an ODS type amplifier together , doing some expected fine tuning after completion, and tunneled in on the bias power supply .

I started out using an old diode ( salvaged from an old fender silver face baseman ten Carcass I have been pulling parts from for years ), a pair of some modern name brand electrolytic from CEDIST (forget the brand), and a NOS unknown brand CF 2 watt resistor I had lying around. The bias pot tail resistor was a KOA CF off a CTS 10k pot. Bias grid resistors were KOA CF.

As a disclaimer , I actually measure component values and try to match as close as possible when making these installations , but there is almost always some deviation of a small percentage . Hard to find anything with an exact same value, but I try .

Well I started out swapping the KOA 220k bias grids with XICON . This wasn’t as bright and high focused. More bounce and give to the notes . Digging in had less transient peaks with the in your face frequencies .

Next, I replaced the electrolytics with some modern BC components brand capacitors . This gave more air and space to the tonality ; it felt less congested and and directional , more like the sound was all around you and not simply crawling out of the speaker .

Next, I swapped out the diode with a modern 1N4007. This was a very distinct difference . The high end clarity that felt like icepicks was tempered significantly. Again, digging in has more give , less dynamic but definitely not as potentially harsh .

Finally , I swapped the no name resistor with a modern ohmite. The amp came alive . Bouncy and forgiving . Bias range still ideally wasn’t where it needed to be so I replaced with a smaller value KOA. Magic disappeared. Paralleled ohmite over KOA, value difference small enough to work. Magic returned . At that point she was as fun as can be to play , and I closed her up .

Whereas I am not comparing these with dumble parts so to speak , ime these differences between components are enough to make or break an amplifier .

I have mentioned in another thread before about using all Takman brand resistors in an amplifier once. In fact it was this thread that inspired me to try them out . Perhaps they might blend well with other parts than what I chose to use, but until I swapped them all out that amplifier was like playing under a magnifying glass in the hot sun . I couldn’t play that thing for more than ten minutes without getting a headache. KOA , xicon , and dales solved that dilemma :mrgreen:
Charlie
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bepone
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by bepone »

never did bias supply resistor swapping! it is critical function i always put some indestructible metal film there.
this is new to me, absolutely :lol:
WhopperPlate
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by WhopperPlate »

Heck , throw in a carbon composition . Easy way to change the tonal landscape . Definitely doesn’t need to be a CC either . CF , MF , wirewound , ect they all do their thing. I don’t think a fat 2 watter Cc will give you any failures :) .

I remember building my very first amplifier : a Marshall super lead . Some of the biggest changes I heard made to that amplifier involved swapping almost every component in the power supply . From transformers and caps to resistors and diodes , I wasn’t happy until that was dialed.

The first thing to go ; all those modern xicon power dropping resistors. With that amplifier I ended up being a vintage purist and using NOS AB , ISKRA and Piher , and each one definitely has its sonic signature .

Don’t get me wrong , I have used those modern xicons in other builds and preferred their response , so it’s not like they are evil or bad or anything ridiculous, they just have a potential to feel stiff in certain applications ...I also usually don’t make my soups too hot and spicy if grandma is coming to dinner
Charlie
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ijedouglas
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by ijedouglas »

WhopperPlate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:14 pm You know recently I was putting an ODS type amplifier together , doing some expected fine tuning after completion, and tunneled in on the bias power supply .
I had a similar experience with the bias supply and the FET. Changing my bias cap from a nichicon to a Roe had a significant impact on the feel and sing of the amp.. way more than I would have imagined. Similarly, changing out the FET dropper and cap had a big impact. Makes sense if you look at the FET dropper and cap as part of V1 filtering :)

I had a real hard time with this until someone reminded me about conventional current flow vs actual current flow.
WhopperPlate wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:14 pm I have mentioned in another thread before about using all Takman brand resistors in an amplifier once. In fact it was this thread that inspired me to try them out . Perhaps they might blend well with other parts than what I chose to use, but until I swapped them all out that amplifier was like playing under a magnifying glass in the hot sun . I couldn’t play that thing for more than ten minutes without getting a headache. KOA , xicon , and dales solved that dilemma :mrgreen:
Similar experience. Won't use them again.
Ian
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by WhopperPlate »

ijedouglas wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:52 am Similar experience. Won't use them again.
You know, I found one place I left them in one amplifier that was pretty cool was the bias grid resistors . This brought out a lot of definition and detail that I had a hard time capturing with any other brand in that position , but to be honest I am still wrestling with myself whether it’s worth the slightly harder on the ears sound .

Really depends on the objective . It really helps to have a target goal with any trusty road map , rather than just seeing what happens with a shot in the dark loading up an experimental amp spending way too much $ on hi fi resistors :P :lol: :!:
Charlie
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ijedouglas
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by ijedouglas »

WhopperPlate wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:03 am
ijedouglas wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:52 am Similar experience. Won't use them again.
You know, I found one place I left them in one amplifier that was pretty cool was the bias grid resistors . This brought out a lot of definition and detail that I had a hard time capturing with any other brand in that position , but to be honest I am still wrestling with myself whether it’s worth the slightly harder on the ears sound .

Really depends on the objective . It really helps to have a target goal with any trusty road map , rather than just seeing what happens with a shot in the dark loading up an experimental amp spending way too much $ on hi fi resistors :P :lol: :!:
Interesting... MF or CF?
Ian
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by WhopperPlate »

That was a MF Takman
Charlie
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