Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

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bmx
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by bmx »

Sosijdog wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:39 am ...

I dont believe its the switch as the worst the sound has been was when the switch was completely removed from the circuit and the connector had a jumper cable fitted?
...
What do you mean by "jumper cable"?

Are you soldering in a jumper? That is what I would do. If you mean Alligator clips to jumper the standby, I would expect that not to be a great connection and cause squealing or intermittent squealing.

Also, when you replace the standby switch I would put a cap across it as you see in many schematics. This will keep it from arcing the contacts of the standby switch.

My apologies for hammering on the standby switch, it is a very common cause of squeals in my experience.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Ha no need to apologise, its good to get some help.

The standby switch plugs into the main board. I removed the plug and fitted another same type plug but with the wire are soldered together. Does that make sense? So basically the switch has been taken out of the equation and i still have the noise.

Tonight I managed to verify that there is interference is on the phase inverter stage. Swapping the preamp and PI tubes made no difference. The fault does not shift with the tubes.
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Phil_S
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Phil_S »

I hadn't realized exactly what this amp is. It is a combination digital modeler feeding into a complete tube amp. See the snip from the manual. I had no luck finding a schematic (not surprised,) however, I'll guess it is reasonable to think the tube amp section is relatively simple; one gain stage > PI > Power > Output. Seeing the problem at the PI just rules out the tube power section. I suggest now it is necessary to determine if the problem is in the digital modeler or not. The good news is that the amp has a pair of jacks for preamp out and power amp in.

Is it possible to plug the guitar directly into the power amp in jack? Or, it is feasible to jumper from the guitar input to the power amp in connection? (I have no idea what this amp looks like inside.) Assuming you can do this and that it bypasses the digital modeler, is the noise present? If so, then we know the problem is somewhere between the power amp in jack and the PI.

Alternatively, do you have another amp that can accept the preamp out feed? If you do this and you get the noise, then you know the problem is in the solid state part of the amp.

I suggest, without the answers, you are on a wild goose chase. See what you can do to divide and narrow down the problem.
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Sosijdog
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Hi Phil,

Yes you are correct the input from guitar plugs into the digital “solid state” side as i called it, and this in turn plugs into the tube main board.
I have completely disconnected this and still have the noise. There is no input and yet i have interference present at the PI stage (not at the pre amp output).
A question would be - can a tube fault back feed down the circuit chain? For example if there was a fault on the output tubes could it pass through the coupling cap to the previous stages?

I did find a schematic for the HD100 version which is a head unit with 4x powertubes instead of 2. The layout of the amp is almost identical apart from the 4x output 5881’s. I say almost as some of the resistor/cap designator numbers differ in some instances. But it is the same board layout.

I can post up the link for you guys to see.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Pages 8 - 9 are the pages of interest. Ignoring the 4 way tube arrangement, the rest is identical.
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Phil_S
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Phil_S »

I'm posting pp 8 and 9 here so that others can see it. I am an amateur and may find pretty quickly that I'm out of my depth. Given what you say, it sounds safe to agree that the problem is in the tube amp. As I suspected, the tube amp looks fairly plain, nothing out of the ordinary that I can see. It's two gain stages and PI. The PI looks like standard fare LTPI.

I'm doubtful there is a problem in the post PI section (power output.) My sense is that the signal has to move towards the speaker. I don't see how it moves backwards. If it is present at the PI, the power tubes are just amplifying it. If you pull the power tubes and leave the two 12AX7's installed, does the problem stop? Likewise, if you pull the PI (V2) and leave the power tubes installed, does the problem stop? If yes to both questions, then I suggest the problem is between the input to the 1st section of the 1st 12AX7 and the grids to the PI tube. There isn't very much there.

Some things to try, in no particular order:
-Disconnect the MV pot.
-Tap on all components with a non-conductive like a chopstick or plastic rod. (No pencils -- the lead, really carbon, is conductive.)
-Verify all the grounds are solid using your meter. There should be 0Ω between those components and the chassis.
-Look for a burnt, disconnected, or otherwise damaged component -- something that is making an intermittent connection.
-Lift the presence circuit connection.
-Install a jumper to bypass the 2nd section of V1 and take it directly to the PI. I think this means from the junction of R1 and R2 to C1. If isolating the 2nd section kills the noise, then you have a very narrow section to work with.
-Double check the B+ supply and the related filter caps. (Upper right on page 9.) Looking for a bad filter cap? Maybe you just change those 2 caps?
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Sosijdog
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Thanks for your input Phil.

As you suggest my next strategy was to pull the tubes. Its a long winded task as the amp seems to have to be left a long time for the fault to re-occur! I may get 1 shot per night!

The volume has no control over the fault and that corresponds to the fault occuring after the pre... but i could try disconnecting it.

I have checked and tested all caps with an esr meter and all check out fine. I have chop-stick probed everything but no bad connections. I resoldered the board but no improvement.
Grounds are all good.

I have not disconnected the presence line yet or the feedback circuit... although the presence DOES affect the noise signal! I think i am on the right track with the PI stage but i have no clue how any noise can be introduced into the circuit!

Could it possibly be a faulty rectifier diode on the Bias circuit? Could a Passing diode cause mementary ac to be introduced onto the grid lines? Is that even possible?

As i say i am kinda clutching at straws as there is nothing else in the circuit that can introduce noise at the PI stage? But there must be coz its there! 😂

I will test again tonight...
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Phil_S
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Phil_S »

Well, pull the tubes and settle in for the long wait with a book or a movie or whatever. You may be waiting for Godot by pulling power tubes. I think I'd start by pulling V1 and V2. If no noise after a reasonable time, install V2 (PI.) Still no noise? Install V1. Now you hear the noise? Then you know, between V1 and V2.

Can't comment on the diode. Maybe someone else will.

In general, this sort of work requires a great deal of patience and perseverance. If you took it in for service, I am thinking they'd just shotgun the insides and tell you they fixed it. You wouldn't want to pay the bill.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

So tonight the noise was back - 2 probes, one on the pre amp the other to PI. Only interference on PI probe. So i pulled that tube and the noise stopped, then about 5 seconds later came back with interference on pin 1 of the tube socket!

This kinda rules out the PI tube, presence circuit and feedback circuit as they all pass through the PI tube.
This interference is coming from upstream and feeding backwards into the PI side.
This leaves me with the output tubes and bias circuit.

The thing that makes me believe it is not the tubes is that i got interference on both the power tube outputs. Unlikely that both go faulty in the same manner at the exact same time.

I am looking to test the voltage on the bias circuit next time. If that goes haywire in time with the noise I suspect the rectifying diode. The single diode feeds both bias pots so there is a direct route to both grids and output of the power tubes...
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Phil_S »

Replace the 100K plate load resistor on pin 1.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

I have already tested the other side of R14 (82k plate resistor) which feeds pin 6 which is also connected through the 100k. There was no interference on the B+E side but there was on the pin/plate side.

Everything is still a possibility but i want to test again with both probes on pins 1 & 6 of the PI socket as well as the Bias voltage.
If i get interference on both pins (which should be dead as they are not connected) and the voltage goes wild it had to be coming from upstream of the PI stage.

If the diode fails momentarily AC will be passed onto the grids of to output tubes activating them. Also any signal will pass through the coupling cap backwards into the preceding stage and appear at the pins. The coupling caps are not polarised so this is possible.

That is my next test. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by pdf64 »

Sosijdog wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:23 am ...If the diode fails momentarily AC will be passed onto the grids of to output tubes activating them. Also any signal will pass through the coupling cap backwards into the preceding stage and appear at the pins. The coupling caps are not polarised so this is possible...
That hypothesis seems unlikely to me. If the bias supply diodes D23 shorted intermittently, its reservoir ecap C28 100uF would
a/ present a very low impedance to the 60VAC winding and rapidly overheated from the current flow.
b/ being an ecap, its insulation is unipolar, eg it might be thought of as being a diode with a very high junction capacitance, and hence it would overheat rapidly.
So as you've tested the ESR of all such caps without any oddballs, and extreme overheating might be expected to damage the cap and affect its performance, it seems unlikely.
Even if it did happen, AC noise would be heavily filtered out by R84 5k1 and C56 22uF, so very little high frequency noise of the type exhibited might be expected to pass through to the bias pots.
And what does pass would be common mode to a balanced system, and so would tend toward being cancelled out.

Suppose alternatively what if D23 was intermittently going open, rather than short, circuit?
C28 would be unaffected, which aligns with the findings, but any noise, eg from rapidly filling open circuit and back, would still get filtered out and be common mode.
Hence I am skeptical that D23 is the root cause of the noise issue.

Also, how does whether the coupling caps being polarised or non polarised types affect how they might pass such noise signal?

I suggest to scope TV4 and 5, the power valve current sensing resistors, and monitor how the noise manifests.
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Thanks Pdf - good to see the failings in my knowledge highlighted as that is the only way you learn. You are correct about the cap polarity. My theory seems good to me but in practice may not hold true...

My testing will prove that to be the case anyhow. However the noise is in hiding today...

I am just baffled as to how the noise is becoming injected into the citcuit. I will carry out the test as you suggest and see what I get.

Thanks for all your superior knowledge guys 😃
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Re: Line 6 Bogner Spider Valve Fault - Dying tubes?

Post by Sosijdog »

Pdf - you were correct! Diode is not the fault. I measured the voltage and it did not waver when the noise occured...

I understood what you were saying in the previous post about the common mode cancelling out. Of course it would! Thats what the phase inverter is for! 🤦🏻‍♂️

I do however have the fault at both pins 1 & 6 even with the PI tube pulled.

I will test the resistors as you said.
I am running out of ideas... 🤔
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