ODS 124 - revisited for the 21C

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Stephen1966
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

So, today I put in my first order. There's no turning back now :D

I thought you might find it useful to know that I found a source for the 6PS caps used in the 124. I'm sure you'll have your sources State's side but here in Europe the Tube Town store is good for tube amp components. https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/ I searched for the 6PS caps on Mouser, but came up almost blank. Also, from TT there is the 12V power kit which is compact and will run the relays. https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/tt-ki ... -12-v.html I can use this in place of the extra transformer and filter supply board. If you're building and ODS with European supply voltages, this might be useful for you, too.

Good health!
Stephen
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

There's an interesting discussion about the three-way on-off-on Rock/PAB/Jazz switch here:
[QUESTION] ROCK/PAB/JAZZ 3-way toggle
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31559
It answered my questions when reviewing/redrawing the 124 clean/tone stack part of the circuit.
Stephen
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

I've just posted a schematic for the Clean Preamp/Tone Stack in the first post of this topic which is close to the original circuit described in the photos and the layout. I'd appreciate it if anyone is up to the task of a little peer review. I'm fairly sure everything is as it should be, but I would be happy to make any corrections if you see anything amiss.

Good health!

Stephen
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by pompeiisneaks »

The first input jack seems to have no ground reference for the 1M resistor.

the switch connects to the fet jack and gets a ground connection there IF the FET jack is not used, but otherwise there's no ground at all, and the 1M is not connected to a ground anywhere for the input. It is connected between the coax and the switch on one side, and the input on the other. If a jack is in the first input, then the switch is removed and no ground reference is provided for the coax shield OR the 1M resistor. You might just need a ground connection at the bottom of the Switchcraft 12A jack to get your ground you intended there.

Nothing else is screaming at me on the first review, but I got interrupted part way through.

~Phil
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talbany
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by talbany »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:07 pm I've just posted a schematic for the Clean Preamp/Tone Stack in the first post of this topic which is close to the original circuit described in the photos and the layout. I'd appreciate it if anyone is up to the task of a little peer review. I'm fairly sure everything is as it should be, but I would be happy to make any corrections if you see anything amiss.

Good health!

Stephen

Here are a few extra notes Gil took when he was in #124 if you have any doubts or questions..Other than that it's pretty straight forward and nothing that complicated as these amps are really pretty simple if you stick to the Recipe and grounding scheme :wink: Boards are to scale.
Edit: Notice Martin has the OD entrance resistor marked 120K is wrong it's a 220K on the boards
Everything else looks correct.
BTW.If you want a PAB boost on the front panel (like 124) use on/off/on toggle switch for jazz/rock,and the same if you want the dual bright switch on/off/on (183)..No change in wiring needed..That simple :mrgreen:
Wire colours are often changed, but the layout, is a real work of art with the smallest details included from the photos.
You have no idea?,I stared at those pictures.hours (I can wire up a 124 in my sleep) That was my 1st layout I ever did on Visio and was a royal pain in my ass!! :roll:
Good Luck!

Tony
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

pompeiisneaks wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:10 am The first input jack seems to have no ground reference for the 1M resistor... You might just need a ground connection at the bottom of the Switchcraft 12A jack to get your ground you intended there.

~Phil
Thanks for that Phil, it's a simple job to restore the GND trace and, for the sake of completeness, I should do it anyway (the FET jack has one). Forgive me if I'm wrong but aren't the sleeves of all Switchcraft jacks connected through their bushing to GND anyway? I will put it back though, because the next builder who comes along might decide to use an isolated jack, and then as you say, it needs the GND.
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Charlie Wilson »

Hello, ALL preamp grounds, ground to the buss bar(or buss bar grounding tab). End of story. :D
CW
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:23 am
Here are a few extra notes Gil took when he was in #124 if you have any doubts or questions..Other than that it's pretty straight forward and nothing that complicated as these amps are really pretty simple if you stick to the Recipe and grounding scheme :wink: Boards are to scale.
Edit: Notice Martin has the OD entrance resistor marked 120K is wrong it's a 220K on the boards
Everything else looks correct.
...
Wire colours are often changed, but the layout, is a real work of art with the smallest details included from the photos.
You have no idea?,I stared at those pictures.hours (I can wire up a 124 in my sleep) That was my 1st layout I ever did on Visio and was a royal pain in my ass!! :roll:
Good Luck!

Tony
First, I didn't know it was you who did the layout. Your name's on there, I know along with Martin's but it's difficult to say whose hand is at work. Second, well done - really! Handling Visio must be a learning curve in and of itself but I maintain the best way to handle stuff like this is to have something to do on it. A higher purpose. It's at that point though where we start to loose girlfriends and wives. Thankfully, my wife tolerates me. We will see when I get a little further, if she hands me my passport :D

My initial thoughts were that the 120k value of the entrance resistor was not a critical issue. The 500k trimmer, measuring around 350k (total), then dialled down to around 100k to ground - along with the resistor in series gives an overall value of... 370k? Perhaps I am misinterpreting the ground, but this is where I get a bit curious. Gil's other sketch of the board also marks the resistor 120k.
ODS_124036b(2).jpg
You will notice as well, that the "GND" leg of the trimmer is marked NC in the sketch. If that's the case, it could be a bigger deal, but either way, the trimmer only seems to be acting as a variable resistor.
ODS_124052.jpg
Also, the photo seems to indicate a four band resistor (brown/red/yellow/red) which points to a 120k, 2% tolerance resistor.
However, in the second photo of the board, photographed from a different angle, the resistor appears as four band (red/red/yellow/red) 220k, 5%
ODS_124066.jpg
I don't think it is a five band resistor. From the photos though, there could be speculation that there is a gold band on the trimmer side, I think that's goop and the lighting. If we count it thus it measures 12.4k, 5% if we call the first brand brown or 22.4k, 5% if we call it red - I think it's red. But I don't think it is a five band resistor.
Interestingly, the version 1.6 schematic that I have, marks it 220k (R30 in my revision) at the head of this topic.
OD entrance.jpg
So I think we are all good with 220k and the layout I posted in the first post shows 220k as well. We seem to be up date with those.
talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:23 am
BTW.If you want a PAB boost on the front panel (like 124) use on/off/on toggle switch for jazz/rock,and the same if you want the dual bright switch on/off/on (183)..No change in wiring needed..That simple :mrgreen:
Sure, as you can see, I have labelled the Rock/Jazz switch as a DP3T for the gain boost when its in the middle position. I held off on the bright switch though because I don't yet have all that clear an idea of how the frequencies would be affected by a substitution of the 300pF (124) with the 220pF/100pF pairing (183). I guess it's worth a go though, I mean, it's little different (DT versus 3T) but it's not as if they are buried deep in the guts of the chassis and they are easy to replace if we aren't happy with them. Is this something you tried though...? It's subjective I know, but what are the differences we would be listening for here?

Good health!

Stephen
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

Charlie Wilson wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:09 am Hello, ALL preamp grounds, ground to the buss bar(or buss bar grounding tab). End of story. :D
CW
Hi Charlie, nice to hear from you. If I were designing this from scratch I'd definitely go with a star grounding program with preamp nicely sporting a different and distant leg of the star but what do you make of this? The FET GND wire seems to head to the first ground point in the lower left.
ODS_124080.jpg
I don't know what the FET jack type is but it seems to be grounded to the chassis along with the NOR jack. ... Dumble seems to have been using washers for mechanical support and grounding and perhaps as an aesthetic choice to reduce their projection from the front and back panels. Perhaps that is all they need?

Good health!

Stephen

P.S. If the next builder comes along and decides to use isolated jacks, it makes absolute sense to ground them to the bus bar.
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by talbany »

Here Gil Clarifies his drawings.
The time has finally come for the sharing of over a hundred pictures of an amp I had the pleasure to thoroughly test drive yesterday. The photographs provide enough detail to draw a complete schematic of the amp, especially considering that among the shots are a few of wiring diagrams with component connections, values, etc. The hand-drawn diagrams and the opportunity for me to take these pictures are courtesy of my good friend Billy, who insisted that this information be shared with all amp enthusiasts without restrictions. Billy would post this himself, but he bid farewell to the Internet last year and claims he won't be coming back, indicating he now feels "liberated."

These are probably the only things that are not noted on the diagrams and that cannot be made out from the pictures:

1. 500pf cap bypassing V1B's grid stopper.
2. The "Level" pot is 250K, and although the taper is not shown on the notes, it acts like it's linear since the amps gets very gainy very soon in overdrive mode.
3. The pre OD network is simply a 220K resistor in series with a 500K trimmer. There are some pictures of the trimmer removed from the board, and although labeled 500K, you can see that it actually measures just shy of 350K. It was set at approximately 100K to ground, and it appears as though it may have been taken apart and put back together. Billy and I wondered if maybe the builder had determined he needed that custom value and went through the hassle of taking apart the pot and shaving off a portion the carbon trace? We probably will never know.
4. B+ is 440VDC on the 6L6 plates, which seems low. The remaining plate voltages are: V1A and V1B approximately 190VDC each; V2A and V2B 10 volts higher; on the order of 280VDC for the non-feedback side of the phase inverter plate, and about 10 volts higher for the feedback side.
5. Other than the Dale plate load resistors for V1 and V2 and the precision metal films for their respective cathodes, all other resistors used seem to be carbon film.
6. The only stranded wire used seems to be for the filaments, the rest is solid core and looks like 20 AWG, high quality PVC (not teflon).

A couple of comments on the amp: it was purchased in 1984 and was modified by the builder in 1988 to bring it to Skyliner specifications. Some of the electrolytic caps are starting to bloat and will therefore be replaced, and I suspect the voltages will go up noticeably after the recap job... I will be curious to hear the amp again then to see how the sound has changes. As of now, only the caps on the bias and relay boards have been replaced, which can be seen in the pictures. The chassis is made of 1/8" aluminum, built very solidly, is heavy and uses weld nuts to mount to the cabinet.

How does the amp sound? Absolutely terrific, and I think part of the reason is the old caps, otherwise I don't see how the thing could be so deliciously gainy. You can live on the clean channel alone as it sustains very nicely, and adding the PAB to it results in a wonderful singing tone with a tendency to feedback on just about any note at will. The overdrive channel adds more of the same. Even though I would have thought the amp should be bottom heavy based upon its design (Skyliner EQ and larger than usual cathode bypass caps), the amp sounds perfectly balanced. The best of its kind I've ever heard, absolutely no traces of harshness or otherwise "ugly" breakup to be found.

A few notes:

1. All the information available about the amp is either already stated above or shown on the website below. So that's really it, folks. If you fee like you have any questions, please re-read the information above or have a close second look at the pictures.
2. I prefer to not be sent private messages, please. I don't want to come across as being rude by not replying to them, but at the same time, I don't have a lot of free time and I think that the purpose of a forum is to post information publicly so that many can benefit form the questions of one, a few, or many as the case may be. If there is something I have been asked to not say, I will not repeat it either on the forum or via PMs, so PMs don't really buy anything IMHO.
3. The pictures belong to me and you're free to download them and use them for your own edification. Please do not link the pictures themselves, at their current location, to posts either here or on other bulletin boards. If you want to copy them and host them at another location, that's your prerogative.
4. Finally, the pictures can be found at: http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/amp_guy/ods_amp/. The password to enter the site is "ods_amp" and once you get in, click on the ods_amp link to get to them.

Last but not least, enjoy this! I hope you learn from it, and if you ever run into Billy (if you don't know him, I suppose it doesn't really matter) thank him for his generosity. If you're of the mindset that it's not in your best interest to share information you have, that you have acquired yourself and that could make other people happy, that's cool. However, perhaps then you should refrain from having a look at these pictures as they're coming from a very different place.

Cheers,

Gil

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Also here is 123 124's sister amp Schematic taken right from the amp AFAIK it has the exact same setup 220k into a 500k trimmer more than likely lowered.
#123 schematic.pdf
Don't try to reinvent the wheel :D Follow the layout like the hundreds of people before you and you will be just fine. :wink:
Tony
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by talbany »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:47 am
Charlie Wilson wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:09 am Hello, ALL preamp grounds, ground to the buss bar(or buss bar grounding tab). End of story. :D
CW
Hi Charlie, nice to hear from you. If I were designing this from scratch I'd definitely go with a star grounding program with preamp nicely sporting a different and distant leg of the star but what do you make of this? The FET GND wire seems to head to the first ground point in the lower left.
ODS_124080.jpg
I don't know what the FET jack type is but it seems to be grounded to the chassis along with the NOR jack. ... Dumble seems to have been using washers for mechanical support and grounding and perhaps as an aesthetic choice to reduce their projection from the front and back panels. Perhaps that is all they need?

Good health!

Stephen

P.S. If the next builder comes along and decides to use isolated jacks, it makes absolute sense to ground them to the bus bar.
Here is a shot where Dumble ran a safety wire (in case the jack comes loose) too the buss bar's ground point.Input jack does not appear to be "isolated"?? As long as your Preamp and input gnds are far enough downstream from the power amp the rest is just a mechanical connection. IMO

Tony
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:01 pm
Here is a shot where Dumble ran a safety wire (in case the jack comes loose) too the buss bar's ground point.Input jack does not appear to be "isolated"?? As long as your Preamp and input gnds are far enough downstream from the power amp the rest is just the mechanical connection. IMO
Tony
That too! Sure, okay. That's ground point 1 in your layout. He apparently wasn't too concerned with ground loops so close to the jacks. I've just uploaded the amended schematic to include your suggestions but I will include these as well...
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

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talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:44 am
Don't try to reinvent the wheel :D Follow the layout like the hundreds of people before you and you will be just fine. :wink:
Tony
Frankly, the idea of deviating from the original scares the pants off me but there are just some things we know (by which I mean, you -plural- know) that can be done differently nowadays. Still, Dumble's attention to detail is just so impressive and the evolution of the amp is a thing to behold. Thank you for the 123 schematic, I hadn't seen this one and again, the transformative approach stands out straightaway. I'm kinda glad he never settled on a single version of the ODS - seems he was always thinking about the parameters, this player, that guitar, the tone... never standing still. It's one thing to try to build an exact replica but I think you summed it up perfectly when you said "stick to the recipe". I don't want to go down the rabbit-hole of creating a part for part reconstruction. Let's face it, there can be no exact replica, no matter how hard we try or the lengths we might go to find all the right parts. No, if I want to get one thing right, it's Dumble's openness to new ideas and new possibilities. The museum curator in me wants to codify this build as an authentic reconstruction but every time I hit these pages, I find something new and exciting. And it's all thanks to the pathfinding you (plural) are so good at.
Stephen
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by Stephen1966 »

talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:01 pm
BTW. Notice how Dumble crimps every connection to each component! Do you think this affects the tone of the amp? :?:
Tony
Makes sense, solder is a relatively poor conductor. The question would be do any artifacts like microphonics, hissing or crackling affect the tone of the amp? It's pretty hard to prove the existence of something if it isn't there. :D
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Re: ODS 24 - revisited for the 21C

Post by talbany »

Stephen1966 wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:20 pm
talbany wrote: Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:44 am
Don't try to reinvent the wheel :D Follow the layout like the hundreds of people before you and you will be just fine. :wink:
Tony
". I don't want to go down the rabbit-hole of creating a part for part reconstruction. Let's face it, there can be no exact replica, no matter how hard we try or the lengths we might go to find all the right parts. No, if I want to get one thing right, it's Dumble's openness to new ideas and new possibilities. The museum curator in me wants to codify this build as an authentic reconstruction but every time I hit these pages, I find something new and exciting. And it's all thanks to the pathfinding you (plural) are so good at.
Thanks Steven I appreciate that!

So I will give you my take and you can do with it what you will..The reason why I began building these amps were all the clips and sound files and Live events where Dumbles were involved i absolutely fell in love with the sound of these amps (especially 102 and Carlton's Last Nite ) However, my first several attempts at building them fell far short and I found they sound really nothing like the ones I wanted to copy. After going through a modding phase it wasn't until i started paying close attention to the details and parts types especially, is right where my amps began to sound similar :shock: and what I was hearing from the real Dumbles..Were they exactly like them no!,however I am getting pretty dang close! and today have no problem putting my amps up against the real ones. BTW. I still kept some of those early amps :lol:
Now If your goal is to not try to recreate the sound (or get close) then that is a totally different approach and frees you up to your interpretation and wherever your ears want to take you.Just remember the further off the reservation you go with the different parts the more likely your amp will sound that much different than an original Dumble and at some point becomes something else entirely (sonically speaking)! Electronically speaking you can of course follow Dumbles construction methods and we can talk about that all day. some may have an effect on the sound some not so much.So my advice has always been start as close as you can with Dumble's parts list,play it for a while find out what you like about it don't like about it and mod till your hearts content and will be glad to help anyway I can :D
If on the other hand you have already built several and know the parts direction you want to go in then that's perfectly reasonable and have at it :wink:

Like cooking
The schematic is the recipe and parts are the ingredients :evil:
Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
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