NOS Dale RN65D vs New RN65D's

[norburybrook]

I knew this was going to be a contentious post hence me not posting for a long time, I didn't want to 1: start any arguments, 2: not be very grateful to Charlie Wilson for the kind gesture

As someone who has lived and played with the amp for a year and then swapped the resistors, I should really be able to feel/hear the difference immediately. I couldn't, I wanted to but I couldn't.

The problem is with sound clips like this is the playing aspect negates any scientific 'proof'. As I said earlier, as they are dynamic amps it's virtually impossible to play something exactly the same twice unless you loop a phrase and I was told that wasn't a good test of the feel of the amp so I played a couple of random things. Bear in mind a difference in level of 1/2dB will make the louder one sound better even if exactly the same, so again the levels aren't exactly the same so that will have a bearing.



I'm sure I could post the same 4 clips on the same amp and they'd sound different and people would prefer one over the other, as I've said before I've had the same amp in the same spot for two days and it's sounded different on different days.

So what I'm saying is the differences you/I hear in those clips IMHO as someone who plays the amp daily , are from the player not the components.

Personally I think this a great news for all of us, everyone should be pleased, no? it means we can take a step back, relax and know we can build an amp that will stand up with the real thing using new available parts. Having heard the recent Dumble japanese video and having had Joey Landreth come from playing the Dumble at Blackbird studio to playing one of my amps saying it was a lot better, I'm confident this is the case for all of us.

So I hope this post serves as a positive, rather than a negative to every one here.


MC

[martin manning]

I'm sure I could post the same 4 clips on the same amp and they'd sound different and people would prefer one over the other, as I've said before I've had the same amp in the same spot for two days and it's sounded different on different days.

Thanks for posting Marcus, it’s valuable data even if there is some controversy. Based on the above it seems that even though human ears and minds are amazing things, it may be nearly impossible to to “measure” a subtle difference with them. If the same amp can be perceived to sound different on different days then the the gauge R&R (measurement system reliability and repeatability) is just not up to the job. That’s by no means a knock on you, as I’ve heard others say the same thing.

[Charlie Wilson]

Hmmm, so you posted clips that sound different to show that they don't sound different. OK...?
CW

[talbany]

Marcus
Not so fast!.. I actually thought the 2 clean clips you posted accurately illustrated the subtle differences in the 2 Dale resistor's and only confirmed what I experienced.
I also thought Erwin accurately describes it.
Erwin

Anyway Iiked the 2nd clip clean better more harmonics more depth in sound

Are you sure your not hearing something we are?

Sometimes it's hard to spot a subtle difference if you don't know what you are listening for. It's happend to me a few times where it's hard to spot until someone points it out.

As far as the overdrive side the main thing I notice is the NOS Dales have an uncanny way of generating more 2nd order when more signal is applied so the sound actually gets warmer and the high end compresses and smoothes out where as the new ones don't seem to do this they just add more 3rd order (harsher) overtones. Again spend some time with it try some different guitars and at different drive settings. Now you know what to listen for maybe this might help. Hopefully, CW will validate what I am hearing and add his thoughts as well

Again we are talking subtle here.

Thanks for doing the clips!


Tony

[martin manning]

Sometimes it's hard to spot a subtle difference if you don't know what you are listening for. It's happend to me a few times where it's hard to spot until someone points it out.

Power of suggestion. ;^)

[talbany]

Sometimes it's hard to spot a subtle difference if you don't know what you are listening for. It's happend to me a few times where it's hard to spot until someone points it out.

Power of suggestion. ;^)

Not suggesting. The proof is in the clip. We all hear it.

[Charlie Wilson]

Be carful with that. The power of suggestion works both ways.
CW

[martin manning]

Tony, I'm not necessarily referring to this specific case. You said sometimes you don't hear something until someone points it out. That's classic "power of suggestion." Are we hearing the difference in the parts or in the playing? Marcus was there, and he says they didn't sound or feel different to him.

[Charlie Wilson]

This has nothing to do with the playing unless Marcus switched from flat wound strings to round wound for the second clean clip.
CW

[martin manning]

I replaced the 4 plate resistors on V1 and 2 and the 2 resistors on the PI which also meant adding a trim pot. So 6 in all and a trim pot for the PI which I set after installing.

And what effect did this have? How was it set? Best case would be if the resistances remained the same as before on both sides, if that wasn't possible then I suppose the next best would be to keep them in the same proportion to keep the same PI balance or unbalance. Still, Marcus says there was no difference in sound or feel, so that's where I'm parked.

[norburybrook]

Hmmm, so you posted clips that sound different to show that they don't sound different. OK...?
CW

Charlie.

I was trying to say, and obviously not very well, that as someone who plays the amp daily I didn't notice any difference when I swapped out things and 'perhaps' any difference people are hearing is player inconsistency.

As I said i didn't want to start any arguments etc so i apologize for NOT presenting this in a scientific way.

M

[norburybrook]

I have an unexpected cancelled session tomorrow so I might submit some blind clips to see how that works. I think I have a few seconds of unused material in all 4 forms.


Interesting stuff


M

[talbany]

Tony, I'm not necessarily referring to this specific case. You said sometimes you don't hear something until someone points it out. That's classic "power of suggestion." Are we hearing the difference in the parts or in the playing? Marcus was there, and he says they didn't sound or feel different to him.

Great I guess now we are going to do sound clips that clearly sound different to only prove there is no difference in sound and chalk it up to playing inconsistency
That's perfect.
So I guess it's official now. Sound has nothing to do with why Dumble used these resistors.
Carry on
BTW Marcus I don't think people choose any 1 resistor over the other due to confirmation bias since they clearly picked one and told you why they picked it. Cat's out of the bag
Tony

[martin manning]

I'd be great if HAD would chime in here and settle it, but I think he selected the Dales because they were accurate, stable, and very quiet as compared to the other options available to him.

[talbany]

I'd be great if HAD would chime in here and settle it, but I think he selected the Dales because they were accurate, stable, and very quiet as compared to the other options available to him.

Do you know how many metal film resistors there are out there with similar specs? A lot. Dumble only selected a handful of MF's for his plates was very consistent over the years of the part types used in all his designs. After you see enough pictures a pattern clearly emerges. How many pictures have you seen of the inside of all of his amps To me it's no coincidence and I don't have to ask him because I can hear the difference. If you or anyone else cannot hear a difference then, by all means, choose what you want it doesn't matter. How's that for the power of suggestion? Pretty good huh

Tony