how much does it cost you to build an amp?

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LeftyStrat
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by LeftyStrat »

nickt wrote: To make a million dollar business building amps start with a two million dollars and wait a while :shock: . Seriously I think it's really hard to even make a profit let alone a living building amps.
Like the story I heard about the farmer that won the lottery. They asked him what he was going to do now that he had won millions and he said "Keep farming until it is all gone."

The sad thing is that Randall Smith probably has a net worth much more than Alexander Dumble and Ken Fischer combined.

The other sad part of building boutique amps, is that the people that could really benefit the most from your amps are usually the people least able to afford them; the upcoming musician ("What do you call a musician without a girlfriend? Homeless", "What's the difference between a musician and a large pizza? A large pizza can feed a family of four.")
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drhulsey
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by drhulsey »

LeftyStrat wrote:
nickt wrote: "Keep farming until it is all gone."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tim

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skyboltone
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by skyboltone »

To paraphrase another man's signature on another forum........If I won the lottery I'd just build amps and sell them until the money ran out.
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Ears
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Ears »

Some tech guys really ought to stop "moaning" <smile> about remuneration and consider what it is like making a living out of actually performing music. It's about the only profession that has seen its take home income (for vast majority of non-celebrity players) REDUCE by well over 50% over the past twenty-five years. In late seventies I could get better bread playing "guitar boogie" type cr*p in workingmen's clubs than I can command playing Bach's "Prelude Fuge and Allegro" BWV 998 in recent gigs, so expertise certainly doesn't command decent remuneration.
I've ALWAYS been happy to pay proper fees for tech work. However I'm well tired of gigs were the janitors have guaranteed income higher than performers, (that's no fault of technicians).
And what about the charity "free" concert scam- how many amp builders get calls to build amps for nothing in support of some good cause or other?
mooreamps
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by mooreamps »

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Last edited by mooreamps on Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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nickt
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by nickt »

Ears wrote:It's about the only profession that has seen its take home income (for vast majority of non-celebrity players) REDUCE by well over 50% over the past twenty-five years. In late seventies I could get better bread playing "guitar boogie" type cr*p in workingmen's clubs than I can command playing Bach's "Prelude Fuge and Allegro" BWV 998 in recent gigs, so expertise certainly doesn't command decent remuneration.
Let's see - the height of the live music boom in Oz was around 1979. There were more live venues in Sydney than the entire UK (true!!)

My old band played 4-5 gigs a week for $300-$700 each.

The "personal manager" took 25% off the top.
The 2 roadies took ~$100-$150 each per gig.
The PA hire was (can't recall)
The Lights hire was (can't recall)
The Truck was (can't recall)

What I *can* recall was we four eegits made $50 each per week which was TWICE what at least one big name band on the same circuit was making :shock: (well they had 7 roadies after all !!!).

If it wasn't for the "Government arts grant" (ie the dole)... we would have had to mug old ladies... :twisted:

Now you say musicians wages have dropped? :roll:
rfgordon
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by rfgordon »

I agree that it's tough to make any $$ gigging. Here in Charlottesville we suffer from "post-Dave Mathews Band Syndrome." Every band thinks that tonight is the night Coran Capshaw (DMB's manager) walks in and falls in love with their band. Consequently, most venues pay peanuts, and the bands are desperate enough to take it. For example, one local club pays $50 for a weeknight show (that's $50 total!) and $150 for the 10pm - 1am Fri/Sat show. Another well-known local place pays $40/man, up to 4 members.

For a year we (Burley Maple) were the house band at a local hotel bar, and lots of people criticized us for it. What they didn't know was that we got $300 per show, and we're a trio. But alas, a change in management put an end to that!

That's why I try to keep my prices fairly low, so the local guys can get an amp, a voicing session, and maintenance from me.
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Tubetwang
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Tubetwang »

you guys "think" 70'... :shock:

you've got to get a grip and think 2008... :roll:

Build amps for rap/hiphop and they will sell... 8)

Amps have to be dance-music-approved.

EAT! :wink:

This amp building is a hobby...like building hot-rods...breeding canaries.

Say what? You want to sell them?

Good luck my friend!

Please don't ask me how i know this...



:arrow:
CaseyJones
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by CaseyJones »

Tubetwang wrote:you've got to get a grip and think 2008... :roll:

Build amps for rap/hiphop and they will sell... 8)

Amps have to be dance-music-approved.
You mean we need to think a zillion watts "Class D" to a boomy sounding subwoofer, drum machines and turntables?

I try to be politically correct but there's just something wrong with some skinny white guy trying to be M&M or something. My neighbor's daughter's stupid boyfriend drives a Neon with plastic taped over the missing back window, the car is JUNK, it's full of dents from people dancing on it at raves, it's on bald tires and it has an overheating problem. Boyfriend heard I'm a tech so he wants me to build a speaker box for the back to make his hideously unbalanced system more unbalanced. Every time he rolls into the driveway next door with that boomy-boom-boom kill cops crap cranked up I just want to KICK his bony ass!

On to amp building. The trick is to get your parts cost as low as possible, to accomplish that you need to build as much as possible in-house then source the rest in quantity at wholesale. What you're up against is companies like Epiphone offering "a boutique amp unheard of at this price point". Price point, yes, boutique, absolutely NOT.

Let's turn to marketing. It's all about the hype. It would be nice to buy "the tone I have in my head" the first time through, even if I bought Dumble or a Komet to begin with I'd actually save money. How can that be, you ask? Say I spend a thousand dollars a year on gear for twenty or thirty years... which I have. When I think about it I was looking for tone in all the wrong places especially considering the heavy toneless guitars and the tinny solid state amps I now have in storage. I spent the money I could afford at the time for the gear that was available, had I gone for the good stuff to begin with I could have easily banked $20k. It's all a learning process, though. The tones that don't work just affirm that the tones that DO work are the real thing. I could kick myself when I think about the great vintage guitars I've had and sold just because they didn't work with my rig at the moment.

Back to amps. We all like formulas, here's a simple one. Consider how much you need to make a year, divide that by the net profit from each amp to figure out how many amps you need to build to get by. Then step into the challenge of actually selling that many amps per year. It's necessary to have a well rounded skill set because any errors in concept, execution and marketing come straight out of your bottom line, screw up and there's a glitch in your cash flow. No money in means no amps out. No amps out means pissed off customers, pissed off customers means you might as well cross "amp building" off your list of career choices. There's little room for error. The boutique amp community is a small and a tight community. Get it right (Randall Smith) and they'll hate you. Get it wrong and they'll burn you at the stake! (so to speak.)
Ed de Jager
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Ed de Jager »

[Let's turn to marketing. It's all about the hype. It would be nice to buy "the tone I have in my head" the first time through, even if I bought Dumble or a Komet to begin with I'd actually save money. How can that be, you ask? Say I spend a thousand dollars a year on gear for twenty or thirty years... which I have. When I think about it I was looking for tone in all the wrong places especially considering the heavy toneless guitars and the tinny solid state amps I now have in storage. I spent the money I could afford at the time for the gear that was available, had I gone for the good stuff to begin with I could have easily banked $20k. It's all a learning process, though. The tones that don't work just affirm that the tones that DO work are the real thing. I could kick myself when I think about the great vintage guitars I've had and sold just because they didn't work with my rig at the moment.

That is what i meant when i was saying it was a bargain :wink:
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Ears
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Ears »

nickt wrote: The "personal manager" took 25% off the top.
The 2 roadies took ~$100-$150 each per gig.

If it wasn't for the "Government arts grant" (ie the dole)... we would have had to mug old ladies... :twisted:

Now you say musicians wages have dropped? :roll:
Sure do. Now they have to do their own bookings, carry their own gear and still end up with $50. :sad:

Start rant: 250 years ago the loudest sound most people heard was hooves on cobblestones or blacksmith's anvil. You generally made your own music or heard it in the church. Accordingly, good musicians were precious and highly regarded. Music now is everywhere - from the supermarket aisles to the airport toilets. I reckon the public is desensitised to much of it, most don't even notice the muzak that surrounds them. And 99% of all this muzak is canned. The very currency the musician offers has been debased by its sheer reproduction and abundance (it's no longer so precious and rare) and alongside it so has the musician's social standing. I'm talking about the average competent musician, there will always a demand for the celebrity performer. I'm not saying the average musician 250 years ago could neccessarily make a full time living either but if he/she took a fiddle to the village party would probably have been given a warm reception whereas today they would have to ask to have the canned music turned off. Many modern cafes and bars etc all use music but few will employ musicians, they just don't see the value in paying for live music when a CD will do. This attitude taken to its extreme results in DJs commanding higher fees than bands (common practise here). End rant.
Tubetwang
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Tubetwang »

even playing in my own house becomes difficult...

"Can you turn it off please? I had a rough day and i'm tired"...

I'm an easy dude and i love my wife.

I turn it off.

I do ask my 12 year old to listen with cans. We have different musical taste but.

I will always remember this local 58 years old guitar god who came to my house one night. He started crying..."i'm alone and have nothing to show for"...
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nickt
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by nickt »

Ears wrote:
nickt wrote:
Now you say musicians wages have dropped? :roll:
Sure do. Now they have to do their own bookings, carry their own gear and still end up with $50. :sad:
Yeah did all that too prior to the roadies, truck and "manager".
Start rant: 250 years ago the loudest sound most people heard was hooves on cobblestones or blacksmith's anvil. You generally made your own music or heard it in the church. Accordingly, good musicians were precious and highly regarded. Music now is everywhere - from the supermarket aisles to the airport toilets. I reckon the public is desensitised to much of it, most don't even notice the muzak that surrounds them. And 99% of all this muzak is canned. The very currency the musician offers has been debased by its sheer reproduction and abundance (it's no longer so precious and rare) and alongside it so has the musician's social standing. I'm talking about the average competent musician, there will always a demand for the celebrity performer. I'm not saying the average musician 250 years ago could neccessarily make a full time living either but if he/she took a fiddle to the village party would probably have been given a warm reception whereas today they would have to ask to have the canned music turned off. Many modern cafes and bars etc all use music but few will employ musicians, they just don't see the value in paying for live music when a CD will do. This attitude taken to its extreme results in DJs commanding higher fees than bands (common practise here). End rant.
You must be from Aragorn's line if you remember 250 years ago :lol:

Seriously 250 years ago music was mostly self made. Even 60 years ago there was a culture of singing round the piano. I think you're rant is mixing many things together. Amplified live music has only really been common since the 60's. It grew suddenly and has now shrunk back.

Was it ever good? I don't think so - folks wanted to see bands because they listened to the radio or bought records they heard on the radio. Alcohol and expectation filled in the blanks in mostly mediocre live performances. Today folks *watch* music videos or dance.

Like tubetwang said it's 2008 - the big wheel has moved on - my kids listen to Cat Empire (jazz) - things change.
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Ears
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by Ears »

nickt wrote: my kids listen to Cat Empire (jazz) - things change.
That's great but how often to they hear Cat Empire or other jazz "live" compared with the recorded stuff? :wink:

BTW the refrigerator manufacturer here has recently shifted production to China. :sad:
CaseyJones
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Re: how much does it cost you to build an amp?

Post by CaseyJones »

nickt wrote:
Ears wrote:
nickt wrote:
Now you say musicians wages have dropped? :roll:
Sure do. Now they have to do their own bookings, carry their own gear and still end up with $50. :sad:
Yeah did all that too prior to the roadies, truck and "manager".
Start rant: 250 years ago the loudest sound most people heard was hooves on cobblestones or blacksmith's anvil. You generally made your own music or heard it in the church. Accordingly, good musicians were precious and highly regarded. Music now is everywhere - from the supermarket aisles to the airport toilets. I reckon the public is desensitised to much of it, most don't even notice the muzak that surrounds them. And 99% of all this muzak is canned. The very currency the musician offers has been debased by its sheer reproduction and abundance (it's no longer so precious and rare) and alongside it so has the musician's social standing. I'm talking about the average competent musician, there will always a demand for the celebrity performer. I'm not saying the average musician 250 years ago could neccessarily make a full time living either but if he/she took a fiddle to the village party would probably have been given a warm reception whereas today they would have to ask to have the canned music turned off. Many modern cafes and bars etc all use music but few will employ musicians, they just don't see the value in paying for live music when a CD will do. This attitude taken to its extreme results in DJs commanding higher fees than bands (common practise here). End rant.
You must be from Aragorn's line if you remember 250 years ago :lol:

Seriously 250 years ago music was mostly self made. Even 60 years ago there was a culture of singing round the piano. I think you're rant is mixing many things together. Amplified live music has only really been common since the 60's. It grew suddenly and has now shrunk back.

Was it ever good? I don't think so - folks wanted to see bands because they listened to the radio or bought records they heard on the radio. Alcohol and expectation filled in the blanks in mostly mediocre live performances. Today folks *watch* music videos or dance.

Like tubetwang said it's 2008 - the big wheel has moved on - my kids listen to Cat Empire (jazz) - things change.
Off topic but it relates to the direction that this thread has taken:

"Back in the day" bands played regional clubs, we worked hard on the glimmer of hope that someone would actually notice our heartfelt covers of Top 40 tunes. Clubs in my area avoided bands with original material, people wanted to dance to what was on the radio. The 18 year old drinking age helped, by the time people are 21 they're a little more serious about getting up tomorrow and going to work.

Today we have the internet. While 20 years ago an agent might have booked his favorite acts into a short list of regional clubs today an agent can put together a national tour of small to medium sized venues, original material is now the key. No one wants to hear someone do someone else's tune but they're willing to pay 20 bucks to hear what you have to say when you come to their town. My point is that the opportunity is there. It's not necessary to play the local VFW for $50 per night, if you have a van and you're willng to hit the road for a couple weeks at a time it's possible to make good money.

The benefits to musicians go beyond better pay. Say you have an act out of Baltimore, you can extend your "reach" to Nashville, Austin, San Pedro and points in between. 20 years ago an agent was mostly dead weight that consumed a share of a band's meager pay. Today, I'd say that if you can get me three nights in Austin you've earned your money.
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