Sozo Mustard Vintage vs Orange Caps

[JazzGuitarGimp]

Thanks for the cartoon, Lefty - it gave me the best laugh I've had in a long time!

Lou

[jckid649]

I guess I just prefer something with less of a curve in that break in period. I'm sure the Sozo's sound good for what they are and in another application it would likely be perfect but in this circuit it just doesn't really please my tastes. I do suppose that someone else could listen to the same circuit with the Sozo's and feel totally different about them. Hence another point in the conversation that there is a difference in tonal quality from one product to another, be it a personal perception or electronic reality.

[Colossal]

I guess I just prefer something with less of a curve in that break in period. I'm sure the Sozo's sound good for what they are and in another application it would likely be perfect but in this circuit it just doesn't really please my tastes.

Yeah, I hear ya man...they do take a little while to settle in. That's why I commented on Dorrisant's post about observing the caps go from bright and uptight/edgy to just warm, relaxed and super clear with that dark fuzzy "smear" to the note. When I first tried Sozos and flipped the switch, I thought 'my god, this thing is a bright mess, what have I done?'. But I just let it burn in and it did morph over time. It is rather disconcerting, it can really make you question your ear and objectivity (did I just hear that?), but the effect is real and repeatable. I've had the amp open right up and stay that way after about +20hrs of on time.

There are plenty of great sounding caps though; it's not just a battle of Yellow vs. Orange. Sozos have a particular quality and cop the older dark/clear Marshall tone with a detail I really like.

I do suppose that someone else could listen to the same circuit with the Sozo's and feel totally different about them. Hence another point in the conversation that there is a difference in tonal quality from one product to another, be it a personal perception or electronic reality.

That happens all the time. Tone is just in the ear of the beerholder. No right or wrong answer, only what floats your own boat.

Thanks for the cartoon, Lefty - it gave me the best laugh I've had in a long time!

Lou

+1

[dorrisant]

+1 Dave...

Thats why I said let them burn in... then make a decision. You will know what you have only when they are ready. And if you don't like them then, I certainly wouldn't be mad at you. You know what you want and if that is not it... it is just not it. But you will know what they do and may choose to use them in another amp that might need that particular "spice". Learning by first hand experience, even if it is something that you end up not liking, is still learning. If you approach what you are doing with that in mind you will progress... add more tricks to your bag so to speak.
,
Some people like hot sauce on just about everything, some can't stand it at all... and all others fall somewhere in between the two extremes. To each his own...

I have only let one customer take an amp without completely burning it in against my better judgement... a Marshall JCM800. He called me a few times telling me what else we needed to mod on it. I insisted that he took it too soon and that I wanted him to wait for a month... if it still needed something by then I would do it for free. That calmed him down. He called me back a few weeks later and said "You were right... I don't want to change one thing!"

...thats why I will always say when asked, let it burn for a while.

... and Lefty, I really don't mean to offend you or anyone here. As a matter of fact I really appreciate a lot of your posts, so please don't take what I'm saying as any kind of a stab at you.

Tony

[LeftyStrat]

No offense taken. I try to keep an open mind. We're certainly all here to learn and to search for the Holy Grail Tones.

When I find it, I just want to make sure I understand enough about how I achieved it to be able to reproduce it.

Two quotes by Lord Kelvin come to mind:

"If you can not measure it, you can not improve it."

And

"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and women."

If I can't measure what makes Sozo's sound good, then it will be difficult for me to search for something even better.

[Roe]

the right caps can change an express from sounding harsh to sounding warm and fat with enough cut. I think its money well spent in the case of the express. other amps are less picky about the parts

[roberto]

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/81 ... break.html

[dorrisant]

Nice article .... I must now consider myself an " audiophool".

Tony

[martin manning]

Some talk there about reducing moisture content, but that would be reversible with environment, time, and disuse. More likely there is some structural change going on in the polymer at the molecular level due to the electric field.

[roberto]

I don't think it's moisture, I've always thought was related to some defects on the PP PE material subjected to high electrical fields, or some anisotropic effects on polimer (both PP and PE are slightly polar IIRC) after a continous application of a voltage (usually PE and PP have no particular orientation of the molecules, but with a constant dV on their sides they can obtain an orientation and so change theit electrical characteristics).

By a short googleation I've found this:
http://www.fsr.ac.ma/MJCM/sup_pdf/pdf_v ... -art41.pdf
This seems to explain the warmth obtained after hours of playing (graphs are bi-log), and 10^4 seconds are around 170 hours.

[JazzGuitarGimp]

Here is what SoZo have to say about capacitor break-in, including o'scope before and after shots:

http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html

Regards,
Lou

[ckpop]

The right caps ? it's about the right balance of all of the parts together. Resistors, wire type, wire gauge, capacitors, transformers, voltages, tubes and the list go's on. In one amp a certain type cap sounds better and another amp the cap just does not sound as good.
Be a amp chef and think of all the parts as spices. After you spend 25 years building amps from scratch with different combinations of parts you really start to see how they all work together for different results on the same design.

what was the question ?

oh yea personal choice for me polyester orange drops in fender, to me they have a nice thump and thickness. : ) Trainwreck ++++ also

[Aurora]

OK - I'll admit to being born a sceptic, as well as being being an engineer with 37 years on my back in RF and instrumentation systems.

It is however some sort of strange coincident, that the measurements referred to here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/81 ... break.html
are the same curves, - even the same O-scope as in the Sozo paper ..............
Indeed it is the very same piccies......... behold...

[martin manning]

OK - I'll admit to being born a sceptic, as well as being being an engineer with 37 years on my back in RF and instrumentation systems.

It is however some sort of strange coincident, that the measurements referred to here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/81 ... break.html
are the same curves, - even the same O-scope as in the Sozo paper ..............
Indeed it is the very same piccies......... behold...

How about that. According to the posts on the DIY Audio site these are Teflon caps (so not Sozo), and installed in a power conditioner, not in the signal path. Seems kind of deceptive on Sozo's part.

[LeftyStrat]

How about that. According to the posts on the DIY Audio site these are Teflon caps (so not Sozo), and installed in a power conditioner, not in the signal path. Seems kind of deceptive on Sozo's part.

The Emperor's New Capacitors.