Sozo Mustard Vintage vs Orange Caps

[LeftyStrat]

Until someone can pick it out in a true double blind experiment, it's all snake oil to me. Ever notice how the color of the cap clouds expectations?

Orange = harsh
Yellow = Mellow
Ceramic = brittle
Oil = thick
Blue = Murky

And the one hundred hour burn-in. Classic snake oil. Do what Brian Eno did and record three minutes of street noise, listen to it for one hundred hours, and then you'll be convinced it is the next great pop hit.

Human perceptions are not accurate and easily clouded by suggestion.

I'm wiling to bet none of you could pick out Orange drops from Mallories or Sozo's of the same value from high quality 192khz, 32 bit recordings I make of the circuit of your choice. Your knowledge of what is in a circuit clouds your judgement.

[jckid649]

Until someone can pick it out in a true double blind experiment, it's all snake oil to me.

I've said it before in another forum and I think it bears repeating. The group of people who believe that all of the tonal variations of various materials and such is just "snake-oil" or "hocus-pocus" seem to never be able to answer some fundamental questions.

Relating to resistors: Carbon Comp vs Carbon Film vs Metal Film- They say material doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is values. Material, they say, has no affect on sound because no signal passes through the dielectric. Yet, these same people will argue that a Metal Film is the best choice because it is the "lowest noise". ??? Wait. You just said that material had no affect on sound, but yet you say "Metal" film has the lowest "noise". Didn't you just relate material to sound or is that hocus pocus?

If I'm not mistaken didn't Marshall create it's first amp as basically a clone of a Fender and yet it sounds nothing like it. How is that possible if they copied the circuit to the exact same basic specs?

If all of this is subjective and manufacturing techniques and quality has improved so much over the years then why is it that the newer production amps from builders like Marshall and Fender are so lackluster compared to their vintage models? Are they using the wrong values? Did they all of a sudden forget how to build amps after doing it for so long?

People say there was no mojo in what companies like Marshall and Fender did. They used off the shelf materials and what was available to them at the best price they could get. Just because something happened because what they had available to them was just the right materials at just the right time doesn't mean there was nothing special about it. Some of the greatest things have happened by chance, coincidence, or even by accident.

These companies are following the same philosophy of the highest spec'd parts at the lowest price possible and their results are entirely different than 40 years ago. The reason. They are using different "materials".

Iron and other metals aren't processed the same as it was back then. We are using fast growth timber instead of virgin, native woods. We are using more highly procesed dielectrics rather than more organic materials than they used then.

No one has a problem with saying that rosewood fretboards have a different tone than ebony or maple. A swamp ash body produces a different tone than alder. Yet the body of a guitar is nowhere in the signal chain. If we believe that materials have no bearing on tone then such claims of tonal quality of wood in guitar builds would have to be categorized as illusory.

We can say it's subjective if we want, and there is no way to prove it is or isn't. Just like there is no way to prove the atom exists except that we see it's effects. Who's to say if the atom is really the reason the bomb worked or if there was some other forces involved since no one can prove that it even exists?

I guess the conclusion of my point is that one person's gold is another person's garbage. But this isn't just such a cut and dry subject as we may want to believe. Not trying to argue, but since the forum is open to expressing points of view I think these are points to be considered in the discussion.

To be continued...

[dorrisant]

Man, I respect you opinion. I have to disagree... caps change until they are burned in. Some more than others.

I will concede that most people can't hear any difference if all they do is listen ... but let someone play and compare A to B and you might get some patterns in the results.

When you are playing an amp as opposed to just hearing, you can feel a difference from one extreme to another. To me there is a big difference between ODs and Sozos. Its like I don't know what to expect with the ODs but the Sozos are just more solid.

Most people can't tell a difference even with the highest quality comparison. But there are those that will... Ken Fischer for one, and there are plenty of people who would at least hear a slight difference... enough to want to go back with the cap choice that yields the best tone. This is all dependent on the individuals playing style...
Example: Some caps will smear over an aggressive pick attack but seem to harsh at times. Some will seem to roll off the highs a but deliver a fat bottom end. Some will be overall good but not quite magic.

I guess my point is... I can tell a difference in caps... and resistors (another argument), but some caps are better than others. The exact composition makes a difference. Sometimes changing the cap brand in one position will make a HUGE difference.
I am not bashing anyone who says you can't hear a difference... I do understand when someone says they do hear a difference.

Tony

[dorrisant]

jckid649,
I was typing while you made the last post...
+1!

Every little difference can make perceptible difference in an amp. The purist clone down to the exact brand/model/series/composition for a reason.

You cannot show me any current model Fender or Marshall that can't be considerably improved by simply changing the composition of key components in the signal path.

Tony

[roberto]

I'm wiling to bet none of you could pick out Orange drops from Mallories or Sozo's of the same value from high quality 192khz, 32 bit recordings

There's a better way to judge: two friends, one playing and the other one soldering. You may notice that the guitarist really feels the difference, while the other can't.

[martin manning]

I've said it before in another forum and I think it bears repeating. The group of people who believe that all of the tonal variations of various materials and such is just "snake-oil" or "hocus-pocus" seem to never be able to answer some fundamental questions.

Relating to resistors: Carbon Comp vs Carbon Film vs Metal Film- They say material doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is values. Material, they say, has no affect on sound because no signal passes through the dielectric. Yet, these same people will argue that a Metal Film is the best choice because it is the "lowest noise". ??? Wait. You just said that material had no affect on sound, but yet you say "Metal" film has the lowest "noise". Didn't you just relate material to sound or is that hocus pocus?

The majority of the difference between resistor types is the amount of thermal noise generated, and this is white noise, basically "hiss," which I don't consider a musical sound quality. Non-ideal behavior (inductance and capacitance) which could alter musical sound quality in these types of resistors is negligible except at frequencies far above the audio range.

Resistors do not use any dielectric to perform their function, but capacitors do. Capacitors are reactive in nature and IMO it is not unreasonable to expect that different dielectric types will sound different (analogous to the way different woods sound different in acoustic instruments), and that the properties of a given dielectric type could change, at least to some degree, with use. In my experience this effect seems to occur in the first few hours.

If I'm not mistaken didn't Marshall create it's first amp as basically a clone of a Fender and yet it sounds nothing like it. How is that possible if they copied the circuit to the exact same basic specs?

The first Marshalls were basically copies of the 5F6-A circuit, but there are some very significant differences: A higher gain tube in the first stage (12AX7 vs. 12AY7), use of a lot more negative feedback, different transformers, and a completely different speaker and cab arrangement. Noone should be surprised that the sound is different.

If all of this is subjective and manufacturing techniques and quality has improved so much over the years then why is it that the newer production amps from builders like Marshall and Fender are so lackluster compared to their vintage models? Are they using the wrong values? Did they all of a sudden forget how to build amps after doing it for so long?

No, but they have continued to reduce costs by doing things like reducing the amount of steel in transformer cores, using physically smaller components, and altering or using layouts and interconnections that are compatible with PCB construction. All these things can impact sound quality.

No one has a problem with saying that rosewood fretboards have a different tone than ebony or maple. A swamp ash body produces a different tone than alder. Yet the body of a guitar is nowhere in the signal chain. If we believe that materials have no bearing on tone then such claims of tonal quality of wood in guitar builds would have to be categorized as illusory.

The strings, neck, and body of a guitar are all part of a vibrating system, and all parts of it affect the relative motion between the pickups and the strings. This is the source of the electrical signal, so clearly the mechanical properties (density, stiffness, internal damping) of the materials used will affect the guitar tone.

[roberto]

I like the "multi-quote behaviour" of this kind of threads

The majority of the difference between resistor types is the amount of thermal noise generated, which I don't consider a musical sound quality.

I consider it a sound quality, because the lower the noise, the better the nuances (small signal informations) of the guitar can be perceived. One of the reason why I consider the grounding of an amp as a musical aspect of it.

Non-ideal behavior (inductance and capacitance) which could alter musical sound quality in these types of resistors is negligible except at frequencies far above the audio range.

There's also the voltage coefficent of resistance ( http://www.barthelectronics.com/pdf_fil ... stance.pdf ), and the temperature coefficient of resistance (around 0.004 K^-1) that can increase the value of a resistor by 20% with a 50K increase in temperature (so smaller wattage plate resistors can bla bla bla).

[redshark]

Just use your ears guys!! of course components inside an amp have a break-in period!! When I built my express it was sounding one way and now 3 years later it sounds smoother and rounder. That is normal, caps and transformers have a break-in period!! maybe other components too but not too noticeable.

[Colossal]

Man, I respect you opinion. I have to disagree... caps change until they are burned in. Some more than others.

I will concede that most people can't hear any difference if all they do is listen ... but let someone play and compare A to B and you might get some patterns in the results.

When you are playing an amp as opposed to just hearing, you can feel a difference from one extreme to another. To me there is a big difference between ODs and Sozos. Its like I don't know what to expect with the ODs but the Sozos are just more solid.

Yeah, no offense Lefty, but I have to agree with Tony and Redshark. In fact, Tony described the burn in and sonic maturation process of the Sozos in a previous post in this thread perfectly. His summary matches my observations exactly; uncannily so. I hear the difference in tonic qualities between polyester and polypropylene...and they are quite distinct. Leadfootdriver also noted some specific properties to SBE715/716P polypropylene caps and I concur with his observations as well.

[jckid649]

Martin Manning,

I'm assuming from what you've written that you "somewhat" agree with me...lol

[LeftyStrat]

I'm not saying materials don't matter.

We now know that the mojo around CC resistors occurs as 2nd harmonic distortion under high AC voltage (> 70v). So we don't have to use them everywhere and end up with a lot of hiss.

But I guess my point is anything that can't be measured falls into the snake oil category.

And let me clarify by what I mean as snake oil. Due to the placebo effect in humans, snake oil can sometimes actually work.

But until something is measurable, it's not well understood. Now I completely agree that just because we can't measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and could be a failure of the current state of our measurement tools.

In fact, I always thought that I could tell a difference between a 44kHz sample rate and a 192kHz sample rate. There has been some recent studies using brain wave monitors to suggest that the brain does some how perceive a difference in a double blind test.

But expectations always play a role in subjective tests, for both the tester as well as the tested, which is why the double blind was developed.

[jckid649]

Well said LeftyStrat and much respect for your point of view.

[LeftyStrat]

It might be interesting to take two Sozo's that measure as close as possible and then burn one in for 100 hours and then compare them.

I want to know what is changing; the actual capacitance, ESR, frequency response, something else?

We can see that ceramic caps can be non-linear:

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html

[jckid649]

Personally any cap I have to break in for 100 hours isn't worth messing with. The orange caps sound great right out the gate. It's unrealistic if someone is making amps to sell that they have to give a customer an amp that sounds all congested and promise them that it will get better after they've played it for 100 hours. Makes no sense to me.

[Colossal]

It's unrealistic if someone is making amps to sell that they have to give a customer an amp that sounds all congested and promise them that it will get better after they've played it for 100 hours. Makes no sense to me.

Many guys burn in their caps en masse prior to installation or burn in the amp with a signal at various frequencies at increasing voltage with a variac. It's really not an issue. No builder that is going to last would deliver a congested sounding amp.

Most players who step up to a boutique or individually customized and built tube amp are (IMHO) a tier above the baseline guitar gear consumer. They do so because they already know (and value) the difference in quality and tone that specific component and materials selection and craftsmanship bring to the finished product. There is a vast difference in going to guitar center and buying a mass produced Egnater Tourmaster and a Dr. Z or any one of the amps built by this group.

I also agree with Martin's assessment of thermal noise as being a non-musical quality. Noise can enhance or denigrate the overall perception of an amp's tone which we might define as those intrinsic qualities that please the ear. My mother might interpret the music I play or listen to as "noise" but this is a fringe categorization and does not relate to the objective description of the effect dielectrics and other materials do indeed have on tone.

There is a lot of fixation on caps but transformers "break in" too.