A great opportunity for someone !

[LeftyStrat]

Seems like the key to success would be further automation. That would be the only way to compete with the cheap labor of China.

Modern CNC techniques, SPC for quality, a handful of manufacturing engineers and a complete machine shop to fabricate machinery... sounds like fun.

I'm in, wonder if I could get Paul Allen to fund the startup.

I started out my career in a machine shop at Michelin Tire Corp. A lot of the machinery used to build molds and tires were designed and built in-house.

Move the equipment up to WA one side of the builting is tube manufacturing the other a micro brewery .

Now you're talking. "Tubez and Brewz," "Thermionic Beer," maybe I should leave the marketing to professional.

[selloutrr]

I would assume the liscensing would the most difficult part. What sorts of hazard waste and the proper disposal. Tons and tons of record keeping and cross your fingers the inspector has an old tube amp.

I could throw up a micro brewery over night for $200k. However it's never going to do better then break even that market is full.

Figure a cnc machine capable of the size and accuracy needed in $500k installed and running.

I have a feeling the seller is hoping to male the bulk of the $ in consultation.

No real offense to Aspen but GT was great at saying whatever it took to justify charging 3 times + the price of a tube they silk screened. IMHO if you loved GT you should love Ruby they are the same operational structure.

Keeping supply inventory, creating a dealer network, customer base, and inventory is going to be the hard part. Everyone wants it for free but 1-20 want it enough to pay $ and even few as the price goes up. It's going to be really hard to set a price point that is competitve and if you are over being able to justify and provide a product worth the extra $. If the average 6l6 and el34 sells for $14 with a few higher end $20 each. That's your window and remember your the new guy. You can't charge vintage prices. At least not at first. You maybe able to do a limited run with superior testing matching. Bottom line have to figure out how much $ to get operational, how much $ to operate on a daily basis, how much over head, and how much product can be produced. Then adjust so you keep a steady flow so no one station gets back logged. Then you need a client. That is where a television show would be priceless! Buy adds in all trade publications get the tubes in amps used on hit albums get artist support offering tubes at cost. Production cost should be ~ $3-5 dollars per tube. Assuming you can produce at a high volume. A typical tube lot is 1000 tubes traditional tube standards only 60% are matchable and less then 40% as matched quads. 20-30% waste. I'd want to automate to lower these figures to a 10% or less loss. And 80% matching within .5%. The most automation the less employees, less pay roll, overhead, variables... Got to keep it small and build a reserve fund. Turn a profit ASAP!

[Structo]

Interesting that you brought up Paul Allen, LeftyStrat.

He does play and doesn't he own the Experience museum in Seattle?

Get somebody with the finances and a heart for guitar music to start it up as sort of a hobby type thing.

I don't think California is the place to do it as they have the strongest environmental laws in the country.

How about some place like Montana or Wyoming?
Tell them you will employ 100 people and train them and pay a decent wage.
Get a handful of old timers to help get set up and supervise.
Of course this is a company that probably would make little to no profit but it would make available tubes that hopefully would be higher quality than the Russian and Chinese tubes.
Besides, the investor can write off the whole thing as a loss.....

There is one or two companies that still make tubes here in the USA.
That one that makes the 300B power tubes.
They only fire it up a few times a year and their tubes cost as much as an amp but they still manage to make tubes here.
I can't remember the other one but I think it too makes audiophile tubes.

So who's going to call Paul?

[Cantplay]

No.

The way to do this is build some EMP proof communications gear and get the govt to fund it.

I think the best made tubes ever were for missiles and other similar environments.

John

[passfan]

I've spent my fair amount of time repairing large mills and lathes of US and foreign manufacture with little or no drawings from the 50's. It ain't fun but it is doable. These machines could run again.

[LeftyStrat]

Interesting that you brought up Paul Allen, LeftyStrat.

He does play and doesn't he own the Experience museum in Seattle?

Get somebody with the finances and a heart for guitar music to start it up as sort of a hobby type thing.

So who's going to call Paul?

Here's a story for you. Back in the late nineties, I was living in Atlanta and had Charter Communications as my ISP. They had decided to upgrade the underground cable in our neighborhood, resulting in my house being without Internet access for over a week.

I was so livid I finally found an email contact on Paul Allen's web site. I sent a polite email suggesting that such service would result in more customers calling for open access and community run ISP's.

A few days later I got a call from the head of Charter Communications Internet Division. He told me he had just received an irate call from "Mr. Paul Allen" and that my issues would be resolved promptly. I looked out the window after hanging up to see two guys rolling cable above ground on the side of the road to my house and we had Internet within fifteen minutes.

Everytime Paul Allen's name is mentioned, my wife smiles and says "Oh, your good friend Paul Allen."

And yeah, he plays, and owns the Experience Project.

Occasionally people come over and jam with him on his birthday:

[John_P_WI]

How about a place like Wisconsin? Seriously we have (or had) the industry here. Allen Bradley - now Rockwell Automation, Cutler Hammer, Square D etc Plus all of the machining and engine companies. Raytheon, not too far across the Illinois / Wisconsin border was building tubes not too long ago. There has to be a hell of a lot of talent / knowledge / suppliers still around. As far as beer, yeah we got that covered too

What is the demand for a good tube, honestly? What would the market support? $100 matched pair IF they are good? $200 pair? I would pay 2 to 3 times for a good tube over the crap we have had to put up with these last 20 years. How many pairs / quads / year could be sold at a profit?

I would expect it would probably take between 1/2 to a million bucks, four or five engineers and a year to make it go. Then add in training the assemblers.... Guys, I am truly trying to be positive here and encouraging. Yes, I think this would be a great opportunity IF the business model works out. Wish I could be part of it....

[LeftyStrat]

The combination tube and microbrew factory of course would have to have a quality testing lounge, filled with guitars and loads of vintage amps, where tubes could be auditioned and beer sampled on a regular basis.

Sounds like my dream job

[selloutrr]

I don't see the company surviving by selling $200 matched pairs of tubes. It has to be competitive to survive ideally supplying eom tubes for manufactures.

The business would need to be located somewhere with low enviromental standards and no income tax. As well as where ever offered the lowest amount of taxes fees and licenses.

I honestly don't see anything less then 3 million to get this started even owning the building. it's going to be all the little things that add up fast and being able to operate for at least 4 years without profit as it builds a name and fine tunes the product. At least $200,000 in just advertising per year.

Paul Allen can't touch something this dirty being a northwestern it's all about green and mother earth.

[LeftyStrat]

Paul Allen can't touch something this dirty being a northwestern it's all about green and mother earth.

So exactly what are the environmental issues surrounding tube manufacturing? If those can be solved in an environmentally sound way, it would be a win-win for someone like Allen.

At some point of net-worth, it's not about making money as much as making a legacy for yourself.

[ToneMerc]

I don't see the company surviving by selling $200 matched pairs of tubes. It has to be competitive to survive ideally supplying eom tubes for manufactures.

The business would need to be located somewhere with low enviromental standards and no income tax. As well as where ever offered the lowest amount of taxes fees and licenses.

I honestly don't see anything less then 3 million to get this started even owning the building. it's going to be all the little things that add up fast and being able to operate for at least 4 years without profit as it builds a name and fine tunes the product. At least $200,000 in just advertising per year.

I agree 100%, when you take the emotion out of this it's poorly viable at best on so many levels. It's amazing how gung ho folks are as long as some else is providing the capital dollars.
If I was looking to build a better quality product I would simply setup my eastern euro or far east vendors to do so.

TM

[LeftyStrat]

I don't see the company surviving by selling $200 matched pairs of tubes. It has to be competitive to survive ideally supplying eom tubes for manufactures.

Yet people will pay that for NOS. It should be possible for a company in 2012 to exceed the quality of 1950's manufacturing techniques. And if a push is made in reducing the huge amounts of manual labor, it would save money and improve quality.

Of course, if my business sense matched my IQ, I'd be rich by now.

[selloutrr]

The combination tube and microbrew factory of course would have to have a quality testing lounge, filled with guitars and loads of vintage amps, where tubes could be auditioned and beer sampled on a regular basis.

Sounds like my dream job

I'm sure it won't be hard to trade gear with companies to showcase the tubes.

[selloutrr]

I don't see the company surviving by selling $200 matched pairs of tubes. It has to be competitive to survive ideally supplying eom tubes for manufactures.

Yet people will pay that for NOS. It should be possible for a company in 2012 to exceed the quality of 1950's manufacturing techniques. And if a push is made in reducing the huge amounts of manual labor, it would save money and improve quality.

Of course, if my business sense matched my IQ, I'd be rich by now.

the key word is NOS. Your though process is correct exept add new production into the math and you can't live off of only a couple sales. Gibson and fender proved this they aren't even high end dealers and most of the profit is made from squire and epiphone. You have to make a quality product to survive. You have to hit a price point that is competitive with established companies. So customers A: take you seriously. B: can afford you. Sovtek isn't a tube giant by luck.

[selloutrr]

I don't see the company surviving by selling $200 matched pairs of tubes. It has to be competitive to survive ideally supplying eom tubes for manufactures.

The business would need to be located somewhere with low enviromental standards and no income tax. As well as where ever offered the lowest amount of taxes fees and licenses.

I honestly don't see anything less then 3 million to get this started even owning the building. it's going to be all the little things that add up fast and being able to operate for at least 4 years without profit as it builds a name and fine tunes the product. At least $200,000 in just advertising per year.

100% agree the only thing you gain from starting your own production is pride of ownership and dirty hands the rest of it is probably worse then a trophy wife shopping with the onyx card. Cha ching!

I agree 100%, when you take the emotion out of this it's poorly viable at best on so many levels. It's amazing how gung ho folks are as long as some else is providing the capital dollars.
If I was looking to build a better quality product I would simply setup my eastern euro or far east vendors to do so.

TM