JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

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VintageCharlie
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JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

Hi guys!

This is my JTM 45/100 that was recently finished after a parts-search that took me almost 2 years. Built by a friend here in Latvia. Some of the wiring needs to be tidied up at some point, but other than that it is finished. Sounds glorious - just like what i hear on records from 100w JTM's and very early el34 iterations.

Some of the specs:

- stock 45/100 circuit, except it is running on the 500v instead of the 560v tap and it utilizes a star-grounding scheme.
- Marstran 1202-84 OT and Marstran 1204-43 PT, Marstran C1999 3h Choke
- Alpha pots (almost impossible to find decent RS pots anymore)
- mid 60's 1/2w and 1w Piher resistors
- 66 mustards (the outer foil orientation of all mustards was taken into account, to gain a theoretical increase in shielding - no idea if it was worth the extra effort, but the amp is quieter when dimed and idle than my 18w clone)
- mid 60's RS micas
- nos Erie duoelectric snubber cap
- nos erie preamp filter cap
- RIFA electrolytics on the filter board
- mid 60's RS 1k5w wire wounds on the screen grids
- nos Mullard by100 bias diode
- nos by127 diodes
- original RS hole board material from 60's (toughest find!)
- original RS split top turrets from 60's
- original RS paxolin mains and impedance selectors
- original McMurdo octal sockets - exact ones used in the original Marshalls
- Bulgin mains plug
- Belling Lee fuse holder
- Mullard reissue 12ax7's
- TAD KT66's (selected and relabled Valve Arts)

As you see from the build, i am/was quite a bit into the NOS part cork sniffing craze (hope i'm not the only one of this kind around here :D ). To be honest, i don't believe there is any real tonal "benefit" to this - i just wanted to make a clone of the parts used back then, just to be sure i don't have any nagging thoughts about how close i MIGHT have come with NOS parts. Might be that all the old parts add up to some slight nuances, but i'd have to swap in boards with modern parts with same exact values to make an assassment on that.

There is one issue though - it ghosts quite noticeably. I never had ghosting in any of the amps that i have owned, so i immediately noticed this and it doesn't leave me alone ever since - that is the only thing i wish to change about this amp.

ALL of the parts were tested for their specs and i actually selected them within a tolerance of about 2-3% throughout the amp (at least according to my chinese meter :D). I avoided the dodgiest NOS part category - electrolytics - almost completely, except one cap in the preamp, which was formed along with all the new production electrolytics in the amp before it was fired up the first time. All of the caps, including the NOS Erie preamp formed nicely and dropped below 4v fast and easily.

From what i have read so far, ghosting is not a rarity with these models, as there is supposedly some sort of a mistake in the design of the pi, which introduces this. It can sometimes be reduced by raising the filtering of the screens. But that's not a real solution (would not want to do it, as that would stiffen up the amp too). I have also read that it might be caused by bad grounding. The only deviation from an original layout is that a star-groudning scheme was used, which is superior to the one implemented by Marshall - as a result, the amp is very quiet and i have to stick my head into the cab to know, if it is on. Another cause might be bad filter caps (not very likely in this case, as they were tested (even for ESR) and formed properly, etc., but, of course, something might have gone wrong).

Is there any sort of procedure i could follow to try to narrow down possible causes of ghosting? What tests could i run to narrow down the cause?
Due to the "vintage correct" cork-sniffing nature of the build, i'm not too fond of blindly swapping out filter caps or do other modifications to the amp before there is an idea what might be the actual cause of the ghosting. Of course, if there is no such "text-book" procedure, that would be all i would be left with - to dig around til i find the hornets nest.

Ghosting gets noticeable on vol 6 (hi input) on the neck pickup, slightly earlier with a les paul. It maxes out at about 8 and doesn't increase noticeably when dimed. I've tried running the amp with 2 tubes pulled, but it still ghosted.

I'd be very grateful for some advice. Please let me know what information should i provide in order to give you a better picture of the problem?

Thank you very much i nadvance!

Regards,

Karlis
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Last edited by VintageCharlie on Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

p.s. i don't have a spare quad of KT66's, but swapping around tubes and going through all possible combinations of tubes with two of them pulled, dind't change anything in regard to gosting. Swapped around preamp tubes too - nothing changed.

It's biased a bit on the hot side, but going with cold bias didn't solve that either - just lost some of the mids and warmth.
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ToneMerc
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by ToneMerc »

Karlis, that's a great build there. I don't think you can get any closer to the real thing. I remember when we both were trying to chase down 2% Pihers, did you ever get your vintage wah pedal rebuilt?

Nevertheless, the question is this. Do keep it component value correct or do you increase the filtering to negate the ghosting which is caused by an underfiltered power supply? I believe you should be able to see a 100Hz AC component riding across your DC voltage using an oscilloscope.

Welcome aboard to this part of the world.

Mike
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Structo
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by Structo »

Great looking build!

Good luck on chasing down the ghosting. :D
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
Roe
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by Roe »

double check:
- grounding
- filter caps
- choke
-power tubes
My experience is that these amps should have hardly no ghosting at all. the early el34 amps tend to ghost a little however
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VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

Yeahm the amp comes pre-set with lots of parts-chase stories :)

Looks like metro guys are all over this place too - nice!

Thanks for the tips, ToneMerc and Roe!

Honestly, i intuitively suspect it might be the NOS preamp filter cap - that will be one of the first things to check out then.

Is there any way one can exclude some of the possible causes - like grounding, for instance?

Oh, when the amp is close to cranked, say on 7-8, a point where i get ghosting - if i turn down the guitar volume really low, the ghosting doesn't disappear as i thought it would, it still stays with the guitar turned down really low.

I hope i will find the cause foir the ghosting, as then the bass know would be more useable too.
VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

Forgot to mention the wah. Yes, my v847 was rebuilt to v846/McCoy spec. The new board was swapped in, so i can't comment on the effect of separate parts. The improvement was really great (for my taste) - it got more "vocal", a wider sweep range - simply more quack, with none of the harsh highs that it previously had.

Here's a couple of pics.

After the pic was made, the pro pot ICAR copy (200k) was installed instead, along with a true bypass switch. To be honest, it seems to me like i liked the old pot better, but that may be becasue i hadn't got time to set a proper range for the Pro pot.

I did the same thing to a Dunlop JH F1 fuzz - made it into a germanium fuzz with NKT275 relatives - i think the NKT214 it was - they had the recommended 70 and 120 hfe. IT got really thick and wooly - for it to sound good the guitar volume HAS to be turned down - otherwise it is too thick, bassy. But once the guitar volume is dialed down a bit, it sounds fantastic. (haven't made pics of that one yet.
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azatplayer
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by azatplayer »

I reckon that erie is the culprit too. Your buddy did a very nice job with the great stuff you gave him, like it!
tictac
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by tictac »

47pf snubber in P.I. ; didn't notice it in your build, see JTM45 / 5F6A Bassman schematic...
VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

That would be funny - the only nos electrolytic in the build and it would turn out to be a dud :) I hope it will be that easy.

Thanks for the tip, but there is a 47pF - it's partially under the resistors - easy to miss.

Yes, he did a wonderful job - especially the components on the boards. The wiring might see a rework at some point, as it wasn't "finalized" due to the possibility that there might be any issues and the extra wire length might be useful for some purpose.
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Structo
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by Structo »

Is it possible for you to record a clip to demonstrate this ghosting?

I don't suppose it could be the lead dress?

Causing cross talk or oscillation?
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

I could record it through an Impulse Response cab sim - can't crank it for real in the next days. I'll see what i can do.

As for oscilation/crosstalk/microphonic - no idea how these things manifest tonally, but there is one thing i noticed - especially with my strat. If i stand right next to the amp, with the guitar really close to the head and hit some short hard chords or single notes, i get a high-pitched squeal right after the attack of the note. Puting the guitar almost to the headcab gets the squeals almost without any input from my side - sounds like midget-feedback :D
Don't have this issue, if i'm about 1m away from the head.
Is this normal or is it an indicator for an issue?

About lead-dress - unlikely that there is something done wrong - the guy is a pro and knows what he's doing. But it is not impossible, of course.

I suppose step nr.1 should be to swap out the NOS Erie preamp cap,
then lift the board(s) to see if there are no lead-dress and/or grounding errors. Then check the Rifas in the output section.
I've read also that the choke sometimes might have some issues that lead to ghosting, Mine is 3H, which should be the vintage correct spec choke for this circuit. Decreasing henries might reduce ghosting, but this shouldn't be necessary, if the real cause is found.
dukeamps
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by dukeamps »

VintageCharlie wrote:I could record it through an Impulse Response cab sim - can't crank it for real in the next days. I'll see what i can do.

As for oscilation/crosstalk/microphonic - no idea how these things manifest tonally, but there is one thing i noticed - especially with my strat. If i stand right next to the amp, with the guitar really close to the head and hit some short hard chords or single notes, i get a high-pitched squeal right after the attack of the note. Puting the guitar almost to the headcab gets the squeals almost without any input from my side - sounds like midget-feedback :D
Don't have this issue, if i'm about 1m away from the head.
Is this normal or is it an indicator for an issue?

About lead-dress - unlikely that there is something done wrong - the guy is a pro and knows what he's doing. But it is not impossible, of course.

I suppose step nr.1 should be to swap out the NOS Erie preamp cap,
then lift the board(s) to see if there are no lead-dress and/or grounding errors. Then check the Rifas in the output section.
I've read also that the choke sometimes might have some issues that lead to ghosting, Mine is 3H, which should be the vintage correct spec choke for this circuit. Decreasing henries might reduce ghosting, but this shouldn't be necessary, if the real cause is found.
Have you got a metal plate in the bottom of the headcase?
Cliff Schecht
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by Cliff Schecht »

VintageCharlie wrote:I could record it through an Impulse Response cab sim - can't crank it for real in the next days. I'll see what i can do.

As for oscilation/crosstalk/microphonic - no idea how these things manifest tonally, but there is one thing i noticed - especially with my strat. If i stand right next to the amp, with the guitar really close to the head and hit some short hard chords or single notes, i get a high-pitched squeal right after the attack of the note. Puting the guitar almost to the headcab gets the squeals almost without any input from my side - sounds like midget-feedback :D
Don't have this issue, if i'm about 1m away from the head.
Is this normal or is it an indicator for an issue?

About lead-dress - unlikely that there is something done wrong - the guy is a pro and knows what he's doing. But it is not impossible, of course.

I suppose step nr.1 should be to swap out the NOS Erie preamp cap,
then lift the board(s) to see if there are no lead-dress and/or grounding errors. Then check the Rifas in the output section.
I've read also that the choke sometimes might have some issues that lead to ghosting, Mine is 3H, which should be the vintage correct spec choke for this circuit. Decreasing henries might reduce ghosting, but this shouldn't be necessary, if the real cause is found.
Yeah most high gain amps squeal pretty bad when you get really close with a guitar. It's a nasty sound..

In what way would the longer wires help in this circuit? IME this leads to a less effective decoupling capacitor and B+ lines that are more susceptible to noise. Even if the amp is quiet, the ghosting could be caused by two wires being close that shouldn't be (although I don't think this is it).

I've heard ghosting in a few different situations. One actually was from a bad "NOS" reformed electrolytic. I take the risk too and use old electrolytics when I have them. IME how they were stored is most critical, even if they reform decently they could still not last very long in-circuit.

I've also experienced ghosting from a bad PT or a heavily overloaded transformer. If I'm not mistaken the Marshall transformers weren't the beefiest ones on the market as was typical of most guitar amp manufacturers of the time.

Of course also triple check all solder joints and wire bits, look closely around the tube sockets for small metal particles and other shit that could be causing some arcing.

That's all I can think of for now :D.
Cliff Schecht - Circuit P.I.
VintageCharlie
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Re: JTM 45/100 build, pics, clips and some questions on ghosting

Post by VintageCharlie »

Thanks for the suggestions guys - some new ones to worry about :D

Ok, i just recorded some bits - will compile the "best of worst" moments and post a clip when i get the time to cut it together.
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