Now that so many have built successful clones....

[Shermock]

...how about discussing the difference between pre-Francesca clones and post-Francesca?

I ask that way only because it seems there was a real revolution in clone building once those pics were available.

What construction/layout/component issues became real, tangible changes?

What didn't seem to matter much?

Has anyone compared their own projects in this fashion?

Personally, I haven't made an exact Francesca clone. I built an Express head rather willy-nilly based on the information available before the Francesca pics came out, and modified things later. What resulted was an amp that screamed incredibly, buzzed loudly, and had wayyy more harmonic richness than anything else I had heard. It was also too loud even with 6V6s for anything I'm doing as a player. Single-ended seems a very likely possibility, as it may be "just right" for what I need an amp to do.

So I am interested in compiling some real-world experience and guidance from forum contributors about what really worked well for you.

My thought is this: right now I play jobbing dates with a 2-EL84 amp that is a little tone monster a la Matchless Spitfire/Marshall 18 watt that I can't turn up past 9:30 on the volume. (This band really is that quiet!) So I need a pedal to do crunch and leads. Wouldn't it be nice to simplify another notch and have an amp that'll eliminate the need for the pedals? Guitar->cord-> amp. A beautiful thing!!

I have a narrow-panel tweed chassis sitting around, just waiting for a project to be built in it. How much will be "missed" by not laying out the physical tube location and transformers exactly like the Francesca/Ginger/etc. heads?

Or another way of putting it...did you find that it need to be exactly like Francesca to get the goods?

Thanks everyone!

Shermock

[bueller]

I agree that any power tube distortion amp is too loud to gig with these days and too loud to practice with, but they do sound so good. My own DIY Marshall 18 with an EF86 pre-amp is too loud past 9 o'clock. I did build a SE Wreck pre-Francesca. I even tried to add half a PI, but it never sounded right. It had a quality that is hard to desribe, but I think the SE vs PP is like single coil pick-ups vs humbuckers, the PP amps just sound thicker. I have built many SE amps and all are loud with an EL34 cranked up. My favorite SE is two 12AX7 gain stages into a EL84 with no tone stack, only volume and coupling caps voiced as needed. That, you can actually turn up past 1/2 on the volume and it crunches.
Basically I believe a wreck style amp will never be quiet enough for most people. My main gigging/practice will always have to be a cascaded 3-stage pre-amp with cathode follower driven tone stack with a master volume. Yes it's all pre-amp distortion but it works and I don't need any pedals and I happen to love that sound (JCM800). Low plate voltage, under filtering, and cathode biased hot all help, but that is the VH1 I heard in '79.

That said, I am building a Francesca clone now. Can't help it. It's a quest.

[Shermock]

Hey man thanks for the reply.

You've got me thinking about a single EL84...

There's a little amp made by ZFex, I think, that may be an inspiration...While I'm typing this I'm thinking about looking that up...It's just a tiny thing, and it uses a wierd miniature tube that I can't remember.

I do, really, want a true Francesca-like Trainwreck in my amp arsenal, but I am thinking practically about where I should spend my amp-building time right now.

Hoppy Halidays!

Shermock

[bueller]

I have been trying to make single ended clone amps for a while and finally gave up except for the EL84 one. Mine uses sort of Marshall values 820/0.68mF on stage one and 1.5k on stage two with small coupling between, 0.0022 to 0.0047 or something.
If you do try a Trainwreck style SE design, with a plate loaded tone stack, stick with only the three stages into the power tube and try a 33K slope resistor instead of the 100K. This will add some low mids and thicken things up. I made the slope switchable so I had both. I tried with and without grid-stops in the pre-amp and with and without voltage dividers. It works fine without either. No real difference except you lose gain with the dividers. Also try using really low filtering values for the plate, like 16mF if things get muddy when it's turned up. Especially without negative feedback. I think I ended up putting some NF back in ala Fender Champ design back into the 1.5k. With the SE Trainwreck it seems to me I ended up adding a high cut control to help with the high end, same as what the Komet uses, 250k pot into 0.0047 cap. A 6V6 is nice and smooth but not much quieter and they really don't nail the mids like the EL34 does, but they are bright.

I wonder about the Trainwrecks being too bright and that's why Komet added the high cut control. I know my SE version was very fatiguing to the ear after a while. My friends listen to my Dumble and Trainwreck clones and say "that's cool, but too loud" then ask me to build them Marshalls, go figure.

[Shermock]

>>My friends listen to my Dumble and Trainwreck clones and say "that's cool, but too loud" then ask me to build them Marshalls, go figure.<<

I must say...isn't that the way it goes?

Thanks for all the cool info...it's exactly what I was hoping to learn! I think the SE EL84 idea would be close to the mark, though if a PP output is really the ticket I'm wondering about the "Mini Wreck" concept except with a couple subminiature output pentodes.

Upon further research I have discovered a veritable plethora of small recording studio-style amps out there doing everything from 6G6 to 6021. So there may be options for a non-conventional PP output.

Again, thanks for the great info! I appreciate it!

Shermock

[sliberty]

I actually have a MiniWreck design, and I am in the midst of a 3 amp build. My prototype was a SE EL84, but this build will allow the use of several different SE power stages.

Here is a clip:

http://main.sliberty.com/misc/MiniWreckClip1.wma

The playing is nothing too get excited about, but it should give you an idea of the distortion character, tone and sensitivity. Recorded with a single 12" V30 in a closed back cab, no pedals, a touch of reverb added in Sonar after the recording was made.

[Luthierwnc]

Don't rule out more esoteric tubes. A PP 6AQ5 is an interesting power supply, run at about the same volts as a 6BQ5. Dirt cheap for NOS almost anywhere. Skip

[philmanatee]

+1 on the 6aq5, great sounding tube and dirt cheap NOS stock is available. Phil

[UR12]

Interesting thread! The Liverpool is a El84 power section mated to a Express preamp. The first one, Ginger had a 1/2 power switch that let you run it with just 2 EL84s and it sounds great at probably 12 to 15 watts. I have also built an Express inspired amp with a Express preamp mated to a Dual EL34 SE power amp. It sounds great but doesn't follow the KF layout too closly. Another option would be to use the Express style Preamp with a SE 6V6 power stage. All of the TW amps I have built were after the Franchesca pic were posted and I have never had a real wreck to compare any of my builds to so I can't really comment on how close they sound. Allynmey has actually got to A/b his clone with the real Fran and may he has something to say about how close his sounds to the real thing.

You can find my Liverpool clips here

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=1381

Here is the Dual EL34 SE amp. It is a two channel amp with the other channel being all octal 6SJ7 pentode and 6SL7 Dual triode. Unfortunatly these clips were recorded with both channels combined so you'll hear a little Wreck and a little pentode chime blended together instead of just the Wreck side.

http://users.zoominternet.net/~jdhall/a ... 20tele.mp3

http://users.zoominternet.net/~jdhall/a ... 20neck.mp3

http://users.zoominternet.net/~jdhall/a ... bridge.mp3

[Shermock]

Hey Dana, great clips. I'm thoroughly impressed with the dual EL34 SE amp. What grind!!

Thanks for chiming in--everybody's being helpful here.

Hoppy Halidays

Shermock