Solid wire vs Stranded?

[Aurora]

This skin effect nonsense is all over the audio world - it's even harder advocated at the HiFi asylum. Probably also one of the reasons that those of us who have been educated in these matters are more or less concidered as outcasts among all the self appointed HiFi gurus. It seems that all forms of educational based knowledge are concidered worthless to this crowd......

OTOH - there may be something into this tonal thing, as I can see that solid core wire may lend itself to other wire routing schemes, that just may result in a lower signal-ground and/or interstage capacitance than a loom of stranded wire. Given the higher impedance nature of tube amps, this may be audible - I don't know....I haven't built a guitar amp yet, so you tell me.....
As it happens, I actually work in the rocket bussiness (!) myself ( now understand my nick ? )and have made a few harnesses, too - I've never seen a solid core wire in that context, and I'd never use solid in my own builds, except maybe for the odd ground bus or so ( or maybe for a few other tasks I cannot think of at the moment) .

EDIT: and yes - the standard wire is mostly stranded teflon, for reasons of temperature, voltage rating and vibration. Sometimes there are other variations for specific reasons, mostly being screened wires or coax....

[thyx]

The reason George L's cable sound "clearer" is that it is a low capacitance cable so it isn't dropping the highs.

"The" reason? I would argue, as others successfully have, that there is more going on than simply a low capacitance cable. If that were true, a stranded-core cable of the same capacitance would sound the same...right? The reality is that that theory doesn't pan out.

[Structo]

And even if the skin effect was present at guitar frequencies, using silver plated wire would then be a good thing because the current would be traveling in the silver which as we all know is about the best conductor there is.

As far as instrument cables go, they are very subjective and everybody has an opinion.
A visit to the Gear Page can result in 100's of threads on the subject.

I will say this, years ago the George L cable was my first foray into a higher end cable than the run of the mill Spectraflex I had used for years.
I immediately noticed the "clarity" or cleaner tone.
The description of "taking the blanket off of the amp" was pretty close to being true.

Since then I have bought several other cables that I would consider medium road high end cables that I like better than the George L.

One thing is for sure, you have a lot to choose from and you can really fine tune your guitar tone with the right cable for you.

However, one size does not fit all.
If you have an amp and guitar combination that is already borderline too bright, you may not like what a low capacitance cable brings to the table.
It may be necessary to trim some highs off the top and a cable with the right properties can do that for you.

If you like George L cables, that is great.

I have found a couple other brands I like better.
The "blanket got thinner".

Not everybody is the same and no two people hear the same thing.

That is why there is more than one kind of guitar and amplifier being made, to appeal to the vast amount of musicians in the world.

Now I am going to go play my guitar that I built through the amp that I built.

[thyx]

Sonically though, I'd say solid-core has the edge. Less resistance. Electrons all repel each other, so will want to stay away from each other as much as possible while travelling down a wire. Multiple strands will invariably require, at one point or another, that electrons navigate between strands to maintain distance, as well as hurdle a complex magnetic field that varies as strands come in contact with each other and/or break away from each other. In a solid-core wire, you don't have any of this monkey business going on. The electrons all travel down the outer edge of the wire...maintaining the greatest possible distance from each other. This equates to less resistance. Now while all this is technically correct...

Whew... my smoke detector is going off...

Yeah, mine, too. I thought even the skin effect didn't really apply in the frequencies a guitar amp produces. No offense, thyx, but could you supply any real scientific basis for your claims? I've not heard of this.

I have a degree in physical science...what I speak of is widely accepted in non-audio circles. Almost with a "duh". Here's a little something about it:

http://www.ehow.com/about_6457555_use-s ... wire_.html

Electrons repel each other...just as protons do...and are going to do what they can to stay away from each other within reasonable parameters. Not all electrons move along the outside of a wire...but that's the tendancy. For them, it's the path of least resistance. Think of a water pipe: Water tends to flow more down the center because the walls of the pipe (especially if they're old) offer a form of resistance. Same thing with air in your heating system (if you use gas or oil). But with electrons, it's the opposite...the edge is less congested with other electrons, so there is less resistance. Less resistance equates to a cleaner signal. Based on an analysis of Dumble's soldering techniques, that should be a given on a board like this. But the real problem with stranded wire is all the micro capacitances and mini magnetic fields between the wires that cause signal degradation. Guitar pickup makers have known about this for years...which is why you get a crowd out there who won't pot their pickups...citing it removes some of the tone somehow. Well, what is good for their tone, is bad for amplifying it...at least IMHO.

[Structo]

Whenever I hear someone say they are a scientist my BS detector ratchets up a notch.

Not arguing but aren't you talking about two different things?

Stranded wire enclosed in one common insulator is one thing, the strands are not individually insulated.
The strands are not only wound tightly together but are touching each other all the way through. When you solder the ends, you are essentially creating one large conductor. I will agree there are probably properties that the strands have but not sure I buy all you are saying, especially at guitar frequencies.

In a guitar pickup, the wire is coated with enamel or other insulation and is separated by that insulation.
So sure you are going to have capacitance between conductors separated by insulation and induction which is the property in which they function.

Lets not get too scientific or nit picky in a guitar amp that we purposely distort the audio in, OK?

And by the way:

The main problem with skin effect is that it increases the effective resistance of a wire for AC at moderate to high frequencies, compared with the resistance of the same wire at direct current ( DC ) and low AC frequencies.

So at audio frequencies of 60Hz, the effect is null.

[thyx]

Not arguing but aren't you talking about two different things?

No. While I understand that pickup wire is insulated, the concept still applies. Are all wires in a strand always in constant contact with each other at all times down the complete length of the wire? Probably not. So the resistance down a stranded wire is not always constant, in addition to the capacitance and magnetic field phase issues.

In a guitar pickup, the wire is coated with enamel or other insulation and is separated by that insulation.
So sure you are going to have capacitance between conductors separated by insulation and induction which is the property in which they function.

Yes...but the point is that that capacitance is not constant down the entire length of the wire, and can even vary during use when unpotted. If varying capacitance can change the tone, a change in static capacitance is a real issue when considering the big picture of what is going on in the wires.

And by the way:

The main problem with skin effect is that it increases the effective resistance of a wire for AC at moderate to high frequencies, compared with the resistance of the same wire at direct current ( DC ) and low AC frequencies.

So at audio frequencies of 60Hz, the effect is null.

No...not null...but a non-issue. Nobody cares about it because it doesn't effect the brightness of the light while reading your book.

[Zippy]

I have a degree in physical science...what I speak of is widely accepted in non-audio circles...

Which one? I have degrees in applied physics and engineering and my B.S. meter is pegged.

[Aurora]

my B.S. meter is pegged.

Ditto!

A quote from the referred artice:
"Stranded wire conductors offer an effective counter-measure to the skin effect. Although a stranded wire is simply a number of smaller solid wires, usually encased together in an insulating or non-conducting material, the greater number of individual conductors creates a larger effective surface area for a given wire gauge, minimizing the skin effect. Once a negative in high-frequency applications, the skin effect has been exploited to great advantage in applications using RF antennas."

As one can see, the referred articel actually contradicts the referred physics degree......

This thread shows all the signs of "religious belief" in ones own proclamations, similar to hundreds of threads in other guitar and HiFi related fora- htey have no end until actually locked by a moderator....

Real and reliable scientific test in psychacoustis, OTOH, have shown that extremely low variations in perceived volume, or shifts in frequency response, are audible - levels so low ( a mere tenth or two of a dB have been proven audible ), which relates very well to small shifts in tonal response from cables of varying capacitance. Some of the "bright " caps after the tone controls are down to a mere 100 pF, and a variation of a few pF adding to this will most certainly be audible....

In addition to that - noone - and I really mean noone - in their right mind, working with objects subject to even mild vibrations, would use solid wire from a reliability POV.
Which guitar amp is not subject to even mild vibrations.... ????

[thyx]

I have a degree in physical science...what I speak of is widely accepted in non-audio circles...

Which one? I have degrees in applied physics and engineering and my B.S. meter is pegged.

That wouldn't be electrical engineering, would it? I think you would have said so if it was. If not, then that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee with regard to electronics. Nuclear Physics would be a good one too as it deals with the inner workings of atoms...but electrical engineering would be best.

BS meter, BS shmeter...how about an article, or something else like a theory that could actually be discussed? That's what message boards are for...not taking cheap shots.

[thyx]

my B.S. meter is pegged.

Ditto!

A quote from the referred artice:
"Stranded wire conductors offer an effective counter-measure to the skin effect. Although a stranded wire is simply a number of smaller solid wires, usually encased together in an insulating or non-conducting material, the greater number of individual conductors creates a larger effective surface area for a given wire gauge, minimizing the skin effect. Once a negative in high-frequency applications, the skin effect has been exploited to great advantage in applications using RF antennas."

As one can see, the referred articel actually contradicts the referred physics degree......

...when one stops reading when they beleive their point of view has been validated (regardless of the stretching necessary to do so). The article was to show the widely held notion that electrons do tend to travel on the outside of a single-strand wire. Nothing more. The valuation in the article was in regard to power handling notions...NOT audio considerations.

Real and reliable scientific test in psychacoustis, OTOH, have shown that extremely low variations in perceived volume, or shifts in frequency response, are audible - levels so low ( a mere tenth or two of a dB have been proven audible ), which relates very well to small shifts in tonal response from cables of varying capacitance. Some of the "bright " caps after the tone controls are down to a mere 100 pF, and a variation of a few pF adding to this will most certainly be audible....

Wouldn't it also then be logical to assume the same for phase differentials and variable resistances of the same magnitude? And what about the capacitances found between stranded wires that aren't all touching each other all the way along the wire? We SHOULD know that, in RF-land, a 1/4 turn of wire is enough to cause capacitance issues with FM...so it is certainly a possibility...and certainly true that higher frequencies are more greatly affected than lower ones.

In addition to that - noone - and I really mean noone - in their right mind, working with objects subject to even mild vibrations, would use solid wire from a reliability POV.

I guess that means I have to throw away all my vintage Fender amps, right? But durability is a different subject...perhaps a different topic to post on rather than hi-jack a thread for your own witch-hunt?

[Zippy]

That wouldn't be electrical engineering, would it? I think you would have said so if it was. If not, then that and a buck will get you a cup of coffee with regard to electronics. Nuclear Physics would be a good one too as it deals with the inner workings of atoms...but electrical engineering would be best.

BS meter, BS shmeter...how about an article, or something else like a theory that could actually be discussed? That's what message boards are for...not taking cheap shots.

You were the one to post the comment regarding "degree in physical science" - what is it? Applied physics, for what it is worth, includes the study of electricity and magnetism but you might not know that.

I don't deal in cheap shots. I do, however, have a limited ability to digest "information" passed off as "fact". The links that you have posted thus far demonstrate a lack of understanding of the topic in this thread.

[M Fowler]

I was working on getting a EEE degree does that count?

[thyx]

I was working on getting a EEE degree does that count?

You tell us...depends on what you were studying at the time, I suppose. Maybe do your thesis on the subject and prove the rest of those who believe this to be true wrong? Hey...it could happen.

[thyx]

The links that you have posted thus far demonstrate a lack of understanding of the topic in this thread.

Hey...I find the one I posted to pertain directly to the topic that was under discussion at the time...that electrons tend to flow along the outer edges of the single-strand wire. Back-pedal all you like.

[Zippy]

I was working on getting a EEE degree does that count?

You tell us...depends on what you were studying at the time, I suppose. Maybe do your thesis on the subject and prove the rest of those who believe this to be true wrong? Hey...it could happen.

Tell us about your thesis, thyx. Who was your advisor and what university did you attend?

Curious... You seem eager to discount everyone else and credit yourself with an education - what was your area of study?

I cannot believe that you could equate, in a previous post, turbulent flow of water or air with electron flow.