PLAYED not one, but TWO nice Dumbles today!

[Mr Dumble]

OK, well one was a Fender Bandmaster that was Dumble modded.
The second was an ODS with a silver face 1/12 in a wooden cab.
The BM was really cool for someone who wanted a BF tone but what seemed like additional gain at all volumes. It was hard to get a TOTALLY clean tone from it, but it was very nice for those on the edge of breakup tones. KILLER for old style blues playing. The ODS was cool in that you could hear the beginning of where he would later go tonally. The straining was just starting, as well as the phasey type of tones. Not a lot of gain (No where CLOSE to later ODSs), but enough to get a pretty good singing tone. The clean and gain tones were nicely balanced volume wise. A very cool amp for someone who does not want the all out refinement of the later, more RF/LC types of tones. Cool amps!!

[mad_dog]

Did you get any pics or more information on either of these???

[boldaslove6789]

Amp Serial #'s? Amp info?, Please?

[Mr Dumble]

Both are at Lark street music. I just looked, and I do not see any pics listed. A call to Buzzy would get you all the info you want. Sorry I cant provide anymore. I was very stoked just to play two in the same place!Fellow Dumble loving member McDaddy was with me, so maybe he can provide more info. Brad??? (I can say the Bandmaster had at least one transformer replaced by MR.D, and several other tweaks as well.) Also played a new CA OD2 6L6 which sounded very nice and an old Fuchs Carvin mod which sounded really good as well! The Fuchs had the best reverb I have heard in any of his amps. Deep and rich! Great job Andy!

[Max]

Amp Serial #'s? Amp info?, Please?

Hi Greg,

the picture Mac Daddy posted here https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 742#137742 of "an ODS with a silver face 1/12 in a wooden cab" shows a 2nd generation pre-classic ODS 50W combo. It is one of the amps that have been exported to Europe. The combo cabinet has been made by the European distributor.

Here is Tony's layout of such a 2nd generation ODS: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 259#140259

And here are some 2nd generation ODS HQ mp3 files:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 802#140802
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 973#134973
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 368#129368

Cheers,

Max

[Max]

I've attached a test report on a 2nd generation "pre-classic" ODS 50W combo (original cabinet) written by Rick Vito (Tony once did post it somewhere here).

And here's the comment by Mr Dumble on the tone of the 2nd generation Dumble ODS 50W that has been used for recording the mp3 files I've linked to in my previous post:

Mr Dumble https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 236#135236 :

By listening to those tones, I could very easily get them with just a fender and a few pedals. My advice to you would be to pick up a Fender HR Deluxe used ($3-400) and a few good overdrive pedals like a Fulldrive 2, TRex Mudhoney and a Ethoes if you can. bring along a chorus and a delay pedal, and with those few items and the equipment in the studio, you should be able to cover those bases with no problems at all.

And here is what Andy Brauer told about his 2nd generation ODS 50W #023 for rent that started all the Dumblemania in LA and is on countless records:

In 1980, Brauer bought Dumble amplifier #23, for $350…[probably used, because new they went for more than 1,000 in 1980]…”That was the amp that started my company,” he said. "I’d go attend to Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, and Steve Lukather, and turn them on to the Dumble. Everybody else had amps, but no one else had a Dumble for rent.”

source: http://www.andybrauer.com/images/vg/VGlg.JPG

The Howard Dumble Overdrive 50 was my ticket to success in the studios. I would be an obnoxious nuisance and bug Steve Lukather, Larry Carlton and Jay Graydon until they would plug into the Dumble. And then I had them because they needed me to rent this amp that they loved.

source: http://www.andybrauer.com/hits.html

Cheers and a great year 2011 to all the members here!

Max

[boldaslove6789]

Thanks Max, You're the man with the facts. I'd like to get some info on that Bandmaster though . The Bandmaster was HAD's inspiration/platform during the Lindley trials. HAD modded all sorts of amps during those years including a Plexi's and other assorted obscure amps.

[Mr Dumble]

I've attached a test report on a 2nd generation "pre-classic" ODS 50W combo (original cabinet) written by Rick Vito (Tony once did post it somewhere here).

And here's the comment by Mr Dumble on the tone of the 2nd generation Dumble ODS 50W that has been used for recording the mp3 files I've linked to in my previous post:

Mr Dumble https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 236#135236 :

By listening to those tones, I could very easily get them with just a fender and a few pedals. My advice to you would be to pick up a Fender HR Deluxe used ($3-400) and a few good overdrive pedals like a Fulldrive 2, TRex Mudhoney and a Ethoes if you can. bring along a chorus and a delay pedal, and with those few items and the equipment in the studio, you should be able to cover those bases with no problems at all.

And here is what Andy Brauer told about his 2nd generation ODS 50W #023 for rent that started all the Dumblemania in LA and is on countless records:

In 1980, Brauer bought Dumble amplifier #23, for $350…[probably used, because new they went for more than 1,000 in 1980]…”That was the amp that started my company,” he said. "I’d go attend to Larry Carlton, Lee Ritenour, and Steve Lukather, and turn them on to the Dumble. Everybody else had amps, but no one else had a Dumble for rent.”

source: http://www.andybrauer.com/images/vg/VGlg.JPG

The Howard Dumble Overdrive 50 was my ticket to success in the studios. I would be an obnoxious nuisance and bug Steve Lukather, Larry Carlton and Jay Graydon until they would plug into the Dumble. And then I had them because they needed me to rent this amp that they loved.

source: http://www.andybrauer.com/hits.html

Cheers and a great year 2011 to all the members here!

Max

Hey Max,
I hope all is well. I have a hard time understanding your posts sometimes, so I just want to make something clear since you quoted me.
If the amps you linked sound clips to are in fact the same basic build as the ODS I played yesterday, my original opinion is solidified. While the ODS was very cool IMO from a historical prspective, there was a Victoria Fender style amp present that IMO, had FAR superior tones to both the Dumbles. That and a few pedals could easily achieve, and IMO, surpass the tones of either. The Fuchs and CA were also much better sounding amps to me, but we know those are both based on later designs by the man himself. YMMV and all that!

Carry on!

[Max]

Thanks Max, You're the man with the facts. I'd like to get some info on that Bandmaster though . The Bandmaster was HAD's inspiration/platform during the Lindley trials. HAD modded all sorts of amps during those years including a Plexi's and other assorted obscure amps.

Hi Greg,

here's some Bandmaster info (even if this one may not be the one at Lark Street): http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/s ... andmaster/

Alexander Dumble on Lindley's amps and his Fender mods:

Guitar Player Magazine:
How different is the Overdrive Special you customized for David Lindley from a standard model?

Alexander Dumble:
I might have changed the value of a capacitor to some extent, so that it has a different treble response, but the circuitry is basically the same.

Guitar Player Magazine:
Can you "Dumble-ize" a Fender amp to the point that it shares the Dumble philosophy and sound, or would it be a compromise?

Alexander Dumble:
It's a compromise. The actual physical construction of the Fender limits what can be done. In fact, after the last Steel-String Singer mod I did to David Lindley's amps, he no longer uses the Fender Bassman I Dumbleized for him. He wanted this luscious transparency and response--like floating in white clouds--and I came up with special circuitry. I can use a Fender chassis, but you have to rip everything off of it, fill in all the holes, and re-drill it. They're just a little bit too squashed. A distance of half a centimeter makes a big difference in the way something sounds. It's a science involved with what's called circuit constants.

source: http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/s ... /Articles/

BTW: He did and still does a lot of mods to Fender, Marshall and other amps (I know of one Boogie as an example). And as far as I know many gearheads would be rather surprised that someone they believe to be a Marshall hero is a Dumble player in disguise.

Cheers,

Max

[boldaslove6789]

Thanks again Max.

Also max,

Have you played one of these early Bandmasters or "Explosion" amps? If so how do these amps sound? How are they compared to early classic ODS models? I know Brandon posted info of an Explosion model the 100w gold chassis "Overdrive Deluxe". Not too many clips of these amps around though.

[talbany]

OD Deluxe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T_N1RoKKdQ
I love this amp!!

Tony

[deadhead]

And as far as I know many gearheads would be rather surprised that someone they believe to be a Marshall hero is a Dumble player in disguise.

Cheers,

Max

Would you mind elaborating Max?

[Max]

@deadhead:

Hi deadhead,

AFAIK Alexander Dumble worked on some of the Fender, Marshall, etc. amps of some well known players that AFAIK usually don’t come to mind if people think of a "Dumble user list". If these players should want that their names are published they will already have been published in one of the usual gear reports. If they have not been published yet, then IMO they obviously prefer it to be and stay like it is, what IMO should be respected.

@ Mr Dumble

While the ODS was very cool IMO from a historical prspective, there was a Victoria Fender style amp present that IMO, had FAR superior tones to both the Dumbles. That and a few pedals could easily achieve, and IMO, surpass the tones of either. The Fuchs and CA were also much better sounding amps to me, but we know those are both based on later designs by the man himself.

Hi Mr Dumble,

I'm aware that Alexander Dumble’s "later designs" - like the skyline, precision power supply, EL34 etc. amps from around series # 150 on (and your beloved #183 on top of all those you know of these "later designs") - are more to your personal taste than the first 150 "pre-classic" and "classic" Dumble ODS amps.

But some other players like David Lindley, Jackson Browne, Danny Kortchmar, Lowell George, Larry Carlton, Bonnie Raitt, Graham Nash, Jay Graydon, Ry Cooder, Tom Verlaine, Eric Johnson, Steve Lukather, Robben Ford, Dean Parks, Lee Ritenour, Eric Clapton, David Williams, Mark Knopfler, Carlos Rios, Carl Wilson, Christopher Cross, Jerry Miller, Thom Rhotella, Randy California, Terry Haggerty, Rick Vito, Kenny Loggins, Todd Sharp, Steve Kimock, Ben Harper and at least around 130 other guitar players like(d) the earlier designs at least that much better than "a Fender style amp amp...and a few pedals" hat they decided to rent or even buy one of these early Dumble designs - even though a Dumble ODS or ODR was already more expensive than a Fender and a pedal in the late seventies and early eighties.

Perhaps it's just a matter of personal taste.

Here you can read as an example what someone with a different taste thinks concerning the "later designs":

Steve Kimock:

"Just wanted to clarify:
My 50-watt Dumble is in fact serial number 86.
My 100-watt Dumble is serial number 214.

My 100-watt was originally an EL34-Skyline EQ model. I basically got it because I thought I would be getting just a bigger sounding 50-watt. Boy was I wrong! What a piece of shit. We rebuilt it to emulate my 50-watt, that's as close as you're ever gonna get to a clone of my old Dumble! My new Dumble!

If my memory serves me correctly, number 86 …[a transition generation "classic" ODS 50W] … has 3 internal trimmers. Looking from the front of the chassis, there's one trim-pot to adjust the gain of the FET input. There's a trimmer to the right side of the pre-amp board that allows you to adjust the gain to the overdrive channel. Somewhere off to the right, in a smokey haze of monkeys staring into the back of a TV, is a trim-pot that adjusts the amount of presence when you engage the "accent" switch … [#093 of Carlos Rios has the same accent circuit]…. That's it.

The 100-watt as I received it was chock-a-block with trim-pots for every conceivable function. Mostly, they just made the amp sound worse. Fully counter-clockwise was the flat position, fully clockwise was worse. I removed them, sold them on EBay, and bought all the cousins brand new Harley Davidsons. Seriously, that skyline EQ thing and the internal trim concept do nothing for me. YMMV."

source: http://www.online-discussion.com/SteveK ... .php?t=402


@boldaslove 6789:

Hi Greg,

No I did never play the "Explosion" prototype and AFAIK the original prototype is still owned by Alexander Dumble, just as ODS #001, the first production ODS.

AFAIK it is a widespread misunderstanding that the "Dumble-Fender amps" that sometimes surface have been the forerunners of the genuine Dumble amps. AFAIK Alexander Dumble did build his own designs from the mid sixties (Mosrite amps, Winterland etc.) until now and he always did and still does custom work (service, repairs and modifications) on other amps (Fender, Marshall, etc.) as well - according to the wishes and needs of his customers.

And as his customers of course had and have rather different wishes and needs there are a lot of different kind of results of his work on other amps. AFAIK the range goes from a simple "best setup" of things like bias and power amp symmetry etc. to a complete new build from scratch into a completely stripped chassis.

So it is not possible for me to answer your question concerning the differences between these other amps he has worked on and his genuine Dumbleland, ODS etc. builds in a simple general formula. Sometimes he just makes a certain Fender amp (as an example) to sound exactly like the Fender dream amp of his customer. Sometimes he strips the complete chassis and builds an amp from scratch that will be similar in regard to tone to one of his genuine custom made amps - at least to some extent.

AFAIR the Deluxe amp head (see the pictures in Tony’s post) as an example has been built in the mid seventies long ago after his first "Explosion" prototypes (late sixties AFAIR) and at a time at which he already did build the 1st generation ODS amps. And if you look into this Deluxe you mostly meet the same kind of parts (capacitors, resistors etc.) that he used in his 1st generation ODS amps.

His first motivation and goal was AFAIK to optimize the clean sound of the sixties Fender amps into what he thought to be a more tasteful and a more reliable direction. But this road did not lead to the ODS series but to the Winterland, Dumbleland and SSS series. These are the amps that he thought to be a Fender made right or the Dumble interpretation of the "Fender sound".

And AFAIK this is basically what you still would get if you would ask him today to rebuild say a blackface Fender Deluxe: a Dumble interpretation of the Fender Deluxe tone according to what he and his customer think to be the strongest points in the sound performance of a stock blackface Fender Deluxe amp - you would get the blackface Fender Deluxe of your wildest dreams but it would still be a blackface Fender Deluxe and not a 6V6 SSS combo, if you get what I mean.

The ODS series is a different thing. IMO you can think of a Dumble ODS in a simplified way as a tube operated "modelling amp" to emulate typical characteristics of the sound of a clipping Fender or Marshall etc. power amp, but in its preamp section and without using a pedal in front. The ODS amps deliver sustain and harmonics not by power amp saturation and clipping as say a Tweed Deluxe or Champ as an example but by the OD circuit in the preamp stage and the power amp then amplifies this sound to the level needed - from bedroom to studio and stage.

Guitar Player Magazine - September 1985:

As Lindley told Guitar Player in a July '77 interview, "I've got a lot of little amps, but on the road, I always use Dumble amps because they never break down. We went about getting the sound in those amps by taking an old Fender Deluxe to Howard Dumble and saying, 'We want this, but bigger and louder.' And Howard got the closest of anybody I've heard."

Carlos Santana in Guitar Player Magazine – January 2003:

"With the Dumble you can play at any volume – like at Sweetwater [a tiny club in Mill Valley, California] or the Berkeley Community Theater or the Oakland Coliseum – and get all those overtones. With other amps, you have to open them up really loud to get the richness. Bring them down, and it’s like a big balloon that’s not inflated. Dumble? No, he’s got balloons at any size you want."

So if these overdrive harmonics are what a customer wants Alexander Dumble would perhaps recommend to build him an overdrive section into the blackface Fender Deluxe his customer asks him to modify and/or to rebuild - as an example.

As you ask concerning the differences in tone between these modified Fender amps and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation "pre-classic" and the transition and 4th generation "classic" ODS amps, I would recommend listening to the clips of the reference thread. Here I’ve posted and linked to some examples again:

Custom built Dumble Deluxe (build around ’75 AFAIR: AFAIR this is an example of an amp with an OD circuit that has been build into a Fender Deluxe chassis that has been stripped to the bone before. It is the small combo on the left of the stage behind the slide playing Tommy Cougar. AFAIR the Deluxe that Tony posted the pictures of has been built for the same player and around the same time):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lxtbGn2hX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5rXDkk_1aQ

1st generation "pre-classic" ODS:
Ben Harper: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 504#127504
Charly Bonat: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 857#130857
David Lindley: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 096#131096
Charly Bonat: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 437#131437
David Lindley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAbbgSKUZB4
Ben Harper: https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 698#136698

2nd generation "pre-classic" ODS:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 802#140802
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 483#136483
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 973#134973
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 368#129368

2nd generation "pre-classic" ODR:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 854#133854

3rd generation "pre-classic" ODS:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 117#135117
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 322#137322
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 428#138428

transition generation "classic" ODS:
Stevie Ray Vaughn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcHlMyQ9JVQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpHzyz_YNH4
Steve Farris:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xuh4l_ ... ove_events (solo 1:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et04jMFu4Rg (solo 2:10)
http://vodpod.com/watch/2285058-eros-ra ... della-vita

4th generation "classic" ODS:
Larry Carlton:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?t=11970
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 685#137685
Robben Ford:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 648#132648
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiz30Hzhta4
Doug Doppler:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 854#133854

Cheers,

Max

[Mr Dumble]

Hi Mr Dumble,

I'm aware that Alexander Dumble’s "later designs" - like the skyline, precision power supply, EL34 etc. amps from around series # 150 on (and your beloved #183 on top of all those you know of these "later designs") - are more to your personal taste than the first 150 "pre-classic" and "classic" Dumble ODS amps.

But some other players like David Lindley, Jackson Browne, Danny Kortchmar, Lowell George, Larry Carlton, Bonnie Raitt, Graham Nash, Jay Graydon, Ry Cooder, Tom Verlaine, Eric Johnson, Steve Lukather, Robben Ford, Dean Parks, Lee Ritenour, Eric Clapton, David Williams, Mark Knopfler, Carlos Rios, Carl Wilson, Christopher Cross, Jerry Miller, Thom Rhotella, Randy California, Terry Haggerty, Rick Vito, Kenny Loggins, Todd Sharp, Steve Kimock, Ben Harper and at least around 130 other guitar players like(d) the earlier designs at least that much better than "a Fender style amp amp...and a few pedals" hat they decided to rent or even buy one of these early Dumble designs - even though a Dumble ODS or ODR was already more expensive than a Fender and a pedal in the late seventies and early eighties.

Perhaps it's just a matter of personal taste.

Thats one possibility for sure. Another is maybe those sounded way better than the one I played, or the one you linked clips to.

Here you can read as an example what someone with a different taste thinks concerning the "later designs":

Steve Kimock:

"Just wanted to clarify:
My 50-watt Dumble is in fact serial number 86.
My 100-watt Dumble is serial number 214.

My 100-watt was originally an EL34-Skyline EQ model. I basically got it because I thought I would be getting just a bigger sounding 50-watt. Boy was I wrong! What a piece of shit. We rebuilt it to emulate my 50-watt, that's as close as you're ever gonna get to a clone of my old Dumble! My new Dumble!

Oh! there are lots of newer Dumbles that sound like total ass as well! I have played several my self! If Steve says his sounded like shit, I do not doubt him for a second. Steve is a great guy, who knows tone. Anyone who has played a TwoRock type 3 (Basically an amp kimock helped design and approve of) will know he has a fantastic ear! Those amps SMOKE! He was nice enough to invite me to his place to compare 183 with his Dumbles, but I sold it before that could have taken place. he told me he LOVED the tones in my clips of 183, and would love to check it out himself. We have had several really nice conversations on the phone, and I would actually consider him a friend at this point. Some of the old Dumbles sound great, some like shit. Same with the newer ones. I have been lucky to not only play, but directly compare many of both.

[Max]

Perhaps it's just a matter of personal taste.

Thats one possibility for sure. Another is maybe those sounded way better than the one I played, or the one you linked clips to.

Hi Mr Dumble,

IMO this isn't "another" possibility but just the same one, because "better" - in regard to the tone of an instrument or the look of girls or the features of cars or the best place to live or to spend the holidays and most other things in our personal life - IMO generally is a completely subjective concept and generally and always and ever a matter of personal taste.

And as far as I know one of the principles of modern western societies is that there is no major taste-court needed with judges who tell other people what -as an example - sounds "good" or "bad". Everyone can simply use his own personal tatse as the appropriate judge and like - and even do - what he likes best according to his personal taste as long as he doesn't step over the borders of the laws that are valid in the given society as being the result of a democratic procedure.

Cheers,

Max