Trademark Infringement

[UR12]

We all love, admire and respect your family. Please continue to post.

No we don't. Please speak for yourself.

[Teleguy61]

The truth is, by the family's own definition, is that the family is the only ones counterfeiting Trainwreck Amps. Scott (the original poster and Ken's brother), stated to me in a couple of letters that only Ken can build a TW. He also told me that TW died with him...period. He also stated emphatically that people may be able to clone them but, they will never be right, sound the same, or be close to any original. TW was Kenny NOT the amps. They may be legal but, that don't make them real in Scott own words!

The fact is Scott, we don't care what you or your clan think. This forum is dedicated to Ken and HIS amps. It is dedicated to the discussion, building, and enjoying what a Ken built amp was and is.

I for one, wish you and yours all the best in your future TW endeavors but please, don't come here and tell us what to do in our independent place of relaxation. Some may disagree but, that is what an open forum is all about.

+100.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Cliff Schecht]

We all love, admire and respect your family. Please continue to post.

No we don't. Please speak for yourself.

Lol. That wording was a bit strong considering most of us don't know the family in ANY way except for through Ken's work..

[Aurora]

As a non-US citizen, I don't hold any pro's nor con's to either side in this discussion. I have however spent my whole working career in electronics, partly as a designer of various instrumentation devices. At 57 now, doing what I do for a living, and living where I do, I'll probably win the lottery before I happen to run into a genuine T'wreck.

It seems rather clear, though, that the family owns the Trademark to the name Trainwreck. As far as I can see, this trademark is only valid for the US, and thus, unfortunately for the family, have no impact on amps produced in e.g China, or Europe, for that matter. They can of course not be imported to the US under the Trainwreck name, or traded commercially.

As for using the schematics, it's free for anyone. The physical board layouts used by Ken Fischer could be copyrighted, but as I can see, it is not, and since it has been in the public domain for several years, it is now too late for that. The schematics cannot be copyrighted, as it is actually a stripped down AC30 for the Rocket, and what (?) for the Liverpool and the Express, as is probably the fact mor most guitar amps, and a lot of HiFi amps for that matter. Thus it is free for anyone, on this forum or elsewhere, to freely use the schematics and the layouts for personal use. Amps can also be sold, but not marketed with any links, fully or partially to the Trainwreck name, in The US. As is already done by some manufacturers. Whether the component selection or layout can recreate the alleged magic of Mr. Fischer , is anyones guess.......
These are the sad facts of commercial business....
Personally, I plan to build a Rocket or Liverpool clone , - or Dana's dual, for my sons personal use - not commercial!
Whenever, and if, my daytime job settles down enough to make me want to touch electronics in my spare time....

[Structo]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?
I would think not since they are common words.

[paulster]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?

They have a US (only) trademark on the name Trainwreck. Anything else is fair game.

Note that Mesa has an Express model in their range these days, and a well-renowned legal department, so it's actually likely that they'll have applied for a mark to protect their own product whether or not Trainwreck was already using the name Express before that.

As Aurora has already correctly stated, outside of the US it's perfectly legal to stick a Trainwreck badge and/or name on the product. This is because the family have chosen to limit their protection of their intellectual property to one specific region. It's also perfectly legal for someone else to register the Trainwreck trademark in other regions.

So whilst you can debate the ethics of this the fact remains that it's actually perfectly legal. And if someone were to register the Trainwreck trademark in other regions it would actually make it rather difficult for the family to sell their products into these regions without entering into a trademark dispute.

[passfan]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?
I would think not since they are common words.

I would think there has to be something there due to Cieratone coming up with funny names for his copies.

[Aurora]

I think you're right, Tom.

I do, however, see no problems, with the family making money on what's legally theirs. They inherited the trademark , have obviously renewed it, and are free to do what they want. As is anyone else who inherits a house, a business, even a large corporation. Anyone is free to do what they want with their belongings - no matter how they got them - be it in a legal way, of course......

EDIT : I think Ceriatone is just playing safe......It seems that in US litigation even the impossible is possible...
Anyone in for a "Racket" amp.....

[paulster]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?
I would think not since they are common words.

I would think there has to be something there due to Cieratone coming up with funny names for his copies.

No, Nik did that because he was fed up getting beat up on TGP for using the name Express by a bunch of xenophobes who were egging on the mods to get Ceriatone discussion banned from the forum on the basis on some (ill-)perceived illegality.

[FYL]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?
I would think not since they are common words.

Copyright doesn't apply here, trademark does. It can either be registered ® or de facto ™ - say, you have been commercially using a brand nationwide under the ™ umbrella and haven't registered it, it's protected under common law as well as the federal Lanham act.

Generic or purely descriptive brands shouldn't be registered despite Microsoft and the USPTO's best efforts. So Express, Rocket and Liverpool shouldn't be trademarked, while Trainwreck Express, Trainwreck Rocket and Trainwreck Liverpool should.

BTW, the Trainwreck logo, all markings and brochures don't use the ®. They should.

[UR12]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?

Note that Mesa has an Express model in their range these days,

Mesa also had a Rocket 44 in their lineup at one time and the
Reverb-o Rocket from ampeg back in the 60s.

[C Moore]

Are the amp names such as Express, Rocket and Liverpool copyrighted?
I would think not since they are common words.

I would think there has to be something there due to Cieratone coming up with funny names for his copies.

No, Nik did that because he was fed up getting beat up on TGP for using the name Express by a bunch of xenophobes who were egging on the mods to get Ceriatone discussion banned from the forum on the basis on some (ill-)perceived illegality.

That was a sad situation that still reverberates today. It is one reason I have a Love/Hate relationship with TGP. Most players, Pro or Amateur, would have high praise were they to plug into a badge less Ceriatone amp. Topic for another thread, I know.......

[M Fowler]

Mike Zaite (DR Z) was asked and did to give up the name Stingray on his amp so Brad Paisley renamed it to Stangray. Just because a guy has a guitar named Stangray? Seems to far fetched to me, amp verses guitar?

[selloutrr]

fender had that same issue with gretsch's Broadcaster drums so they renamed the guitar to what is now the Telecaster. use is use.

[steviea55]

Sorry about the wording at the end of my last post. It was a bit of a typo in that it became repetious, and also I should only speak for my self. I simply am thankful to everyone concerned, and hopeful everyone can work togeather for the improvment of tube amp designs. Justsaymo thanks agin for posting, and hope to hear more from you.