Telefunken EL84 replacement?

[solderstain]

Since a few individuals misunderstood my question the last time I put up a thread here, I'll try to make my question really clear.

I have a '63 JMI copper-panel AC30 with Top Boost added. Still has its original May '63 Alnico Blues, and is my 'desert island' amp.

In THAT amp, my favorite EL84s are good old Telefunkens. I LOVE them in that amp. Not so in some others, but in THAT amp, they're magic.

I know I'm not going to be able to get those old things at reasonable prices forever (heck, they're not reasonable NOW ).

So THIS is the question I'd like some feedback on: Does anyone know of a modern, easy-to-get EL84 that simulates the crispness of the old Telefunkens?

I also happen to love a smooth-plate Tele 12AX7 in the first hole of old British amps - I've got a Tele in the first hole of my AC30 and my old metal-panel Marshall SL. For a while, we could get EI 12AX7EG (gold), which was a REALLY GOOD substitute for the Tele 12AX7, but we can't get those any more. So I know that modern tube makers CAN reproduce those older classics.

Hopefully, someone has some experience with a modern EL84 that does what the old Tele EL84s do.

[selloutrr]

There are no new current production tubes that I am aware of that harness the smooth and rich tone of the Telefunken. You might have luck locating NOS Siemens, they were also produced in the same plant as the Telefunkens.
When it comes to current production tubes you don't have a lot of choices, Russian or China manufacturing. The brands are just labels. Enviromental issues and War have made tube manufacturing difficult and not as profitable as it once was. The Mullard /Groove Tube / New Sensor reissues had so may problems with bad batches at start up they had to make adjustments to make them stable and they are no longer close to the originals.
My personal favorite new production tubes are the JJ/tesla they seem to give the best tone for the price point but I've noticed they don't last very long in comparision to NOS tubes.
You might look into the Gold Lion line but they are big $$$ for a russian tube. I'm not sure they still hit them with a hammer.

[Bob S]

This might sound like heresy - I bought some Russian 6P14P - EB's for start up tubes. Couldn't see firing an amp up for the first time with Siemens, Telefunken or Phillips NOS. Anyway, the 6P14P's are still in my Liverpool clone. To my ears they sound as good as anything NOS I have.
Maybe my hearing isn't what it once was...
Worth looking at, especially at the price.

[David Root]

I'm personally not a fan of EL84s, but that 6P14P Sovietski tube IS a good one. And way less $$$ than Funkins.

[FYL]

This might sound like heresy

No heresy : most of the tubes in the Russian 6P14P family are excellent and can be found at decent prices. There are four versions, with different ratings :

6П14П / 6P14P; bog standard version, large thick glass = EL84, 6BQ5

6П14П-EB / 6P14P-EV; hardened version, longer lifetime = EL84M, 7189

6П14П-EP / 6P14P-ER; special quality, longer lifetime = E84L, 7320 (quite rare)

6П14П-K / 6P14P-K; hardened version, vibration resistant = EL84F (very rare)

[solderstain]

There are no new current production tubes that I am aware of that harness the smooth and rich tone of the Telefunken.

Yeh, that's kind-of what I've been afraid of. I've tried a number of modern tubes in the EL84 amps I build for myself and my customers. I got myself a set of Groove Tubes-brand EL84s that have the number '4' hand-written into the little orange dot under the logo, and I use these mostly as 'bench' tubes. I have no idea who makes them, but they sound surprisingly good.

I haven't put them into the AC30 yet, but I'm starting to think I just might, just to see if they're even close. I might just pull the Telefunkens and store them away for recording purposes, like I do with the Tele 12AX7s. I've gotten so used to the sound of these Tele EL84s - I'm probably too spoiled for anything else to make me happy, but as I said, they're not going to last forever.

[Alexo]

Yep... there is a reason the oldies go for high dollars (besides the collector's market aspect) they just don't make them like they used to.

...but if you pick up enough broken EL84 hifi amps from ebay, you're bound to run across a couple. Probably get some good iron to boot.

[FYL]

I got myself a set of Groove Tubes-brand EL84s that have the number '4' hand-written into the little orange dot under the logo, and I use these mostly as 'bench' tubes. I have no idea who makes them, but they sound surprisingly good.

4 is a GT rating for current. Their scale is 1 (soft, draws very little current, distorts early) to 10 (hard, draws a lot of current, stays clean).

GT ships two EL84s : the S version is made by JJ in Slovakia and the R by Reflektor/Xpo-Pul in Russia.

[argonaut]

This might sound like heresy

No heresy : most of the tubes in the Russian 6P14P family are excellent and can be found at decent prices. There are four versions, with different ratings :

6П14П / 6P14P; bog standard version, large thick glass = EL84, 6BQ5

6П14П-EB / 6P14P-EV; hardened version, longer lifetime = EL84M, 7189

6П14П-EP / 6P14P-ER; special quality, longer lifetime = E84L, 7320 (quite rare)

6П14П-K / 6P14P-K; hardened version, vibration resistant = EL84F (very rare)

Hi FYL,

Thanks for posting this info.

I purchased a couple quads of some well matched 6П14П-K a year or so ago, and I've found them to be very impressive. The noise floor is extremely low, and to my ear, they're very well balanced.

[Phil_S]

Although I exchanged a bit of private email with the OP where we discussed this, I think it is worth mentioning the 6GK6 tube. Although not overly plentiful, old stock RCA and Sylvania tubes are available at a reasonable price. I can't say for certain they rival the fabled Telefunken EL84, but they sure are great tubes. As stocks run down on tubes made of unobtanium, I suggest expanding one's horizon is not only worthwhile, but necessary. This tube is not a drop in replacement, so maybe you don't want to modify an original AC30, but for home brew, the tube is ideal and a direct equivalent of the EL84, save for the pin out. I have a pair of Sylvania in my 18W and I think they'd be hard to beat. Certainly, they are way ahead of any current production tube.

[67plexi]

6П14П-EP / 6P14P-ER great tube I have a life time supply

[solderstain]

4 is a GT rating for current. Their scale is 1 (soft, draws very little current, distorts early) to 10 (hard, draws a lot of current, stays clean).

GT ships two EL84s : the S version is made by JJ in Slovakia and the R by Reflektor/Xpo-Pul in Russia.

Thanks!!!! That current rating information is VERY useful... so I can experiment with different versions and find a set that have a bit more 'room' to them. The '4' set does break up relatively early, but they work GREAT in a Marshall 18w-style amp, at least to my ears. I wonder what some '7' or '8's would sound like in my old Vox...

Hmm.....

[FYL]

That current rating information is VERY useful...

GT ratings are stepped by app. 15%, so similarly rated tubes can be considered current matched.

Other brands use similar rating systems.

All Mesa tubes are medium/hard.

Red, yellow: GT 4
Green, gray: GT 5
Blue, white: GT 6

Fender uses three colors, with quite bit of dispersion.

Blue: very soft to soft, GT 1 to 3
White: medium to quite hard, GT 4 to 7
Red: hard to very hard, GT 8 to 10

[solderstain]

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. Interestingly, the info on the Groove Tube numbering helped a lot. I ordered a pair of '7'-rated tubes from Antique Elec, and the following day, the pair of Tele EL84s that Phil_S offered me arrived (thanks, Phil!). So I got to compare them back-to-back in one of my 20w builds (kind-of an experimental 'sorta kinda AC30-like but not really' circuit).

The GT '7's (Slovakia-made) do quite well as a stand-in for Teles. I don't think I want to go any harder than a '7'. They provide some more 'air' to the sound than the '4' set does. I'm going to order a whole quad and toss them into the AC30 for a while.

I don't like to gripe too often, but I can't figure out why GT puts an adhesive label on a tube that gets fookin' HOT! The front room of the house stunk like a sumnabitch for about an hour when I first lit them up. I'm going to put the quad into one of my little personal builds and set the sucker out on the patio when I first fire them up and let them burn the adhesive to kingdom come out THERE! LOL!