Metro JTM45 kit

[PCollen]

I am an electrical engineer and have been designing analog circuits for the past 20+yrs. I've serviced lot's of Fender and Marshall amps, and have done a Champ build. I am not worried about building an amp. The biggest issues for me are the time/cost tradeoff of doing my own BOM vs paying Metro to 'do' that for me. A career and family mean that my time is limited and I would rather spend it making music than building. I do electronics all day at work, so I don't have a compelling need for electronics at home as well, although I do enjoy it. I am looking for some inputs to help me judge the tradeoff between a Metro kit and my own - sound quality, value, etc...

Thanks

You won't be disappointed with the MetroAmp JTM45 kit, and George offers very detailed build instruction manual, schematic, and layout. When I bought a Weber JTM45 kit (6M45), I used George's JTM 45 instructions many times even though the two amps have some significant differences in some areas, and I think my amp came out the better for it. Weber offers no instructions, just the schematic and layout available on the Weber site.

[vibratoking]

I don't think there is one JTM45 sound perse'. Which JTM45 sound are you after? The RS 6.6K OT tap with 460V on the plates or Drake 8K OT at 430V on the plates?

Good question! I didn't know there were two JTM45 sounds. I guess I should do some more research regarding them. I am only aware of one JTM45 sound. It's the one with the heavy bass that most guys seem to roll-off. A low-gain sound that is dark with pronounced low mids and a very smooth top. I am definitely not looking for an icepick in the ear. The Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD revived my interest in that amp. So, which one is it? Will I get that with the Metro JTM45 or should I shoot for something else to get into that ballpark? Does anyone know what the plate voltage is or how the iron compares to RS or Drake for the Metro version? As usual, you guys are giving me an education and providing me with invaluable information. Thanks for that.

BTW, I have been trying to register on the 45watt.com site for about a week. They keep threatening to send me the registration verification info, but it never comes. Anybody had a similar experience?

PCollen - how did your Weber build turn-out? Is the amp what you wanted? Would you do it again the same way or try another route? Thanks.

[ToneMerc]

IIRC, most Metro's are between 380-410V on the plates. It uses a true 8K Drake clone that has the buried 100V tap.

Metro forum comments months back from George about JTM45 voltages.

"I settled on the lower B+ spec after listening to different voltages. At higher B+ the amp started sounding brighter and more modern to my ears. It lost some of the creamy, vintagey vibe IMO. I felt the 8k primary OT and lower B+ combined for the best JTM 45 experience.

If you want more headroom and/or tighter tone I'd suggest using a 6.6k primary OT. That would keep the lower voltage feel and tone, while cleaning things up a bit.
george"


Beck could play through a Pignose and sound the same. I have a bootleg that I made of Beck in 98' when he was playing through a 50W Plexi, doesn't sound too different from Ronnie Scotts.

[vibratoking]

Thanks, Tone Merc. You have opened up my mind quite a bit and motivated me to do some more research to understand what I really want. I'll check out the forum at Metro.

With regard to Beck and a Pignose, I would have to respectfully disagree. I think his tehniques and creative ideas result in a signature sound. A couple notes and I know it's Jeff. I have seen Jeff more than 20 times, going back to mid-seventies. His sound changes quite a bit from tour to tour where he is using different amps. His tone is very different when he is using Twins compared to a JTM, JCM, etc... Yes, he is a great musician with a signature sound, but in my opinion even the best can't change the basic character of an amp.

Thanks again.

[rp]

If you go the Metro kit route and you find you dislike, don't need, or get tired of it it will have some recognition and decent resale value, assuming you do a nice clean job. If you put it together yourself you will pretty much be stuck with or not get over $300 for it. If you DIY have you checked out:

http://marstran.com
This might interest you: http://marstran.com/Historic%20Data%20Base.htm

http://www.turretboards.com/

Be aware you can't build just one.

[PCollen]

I don't think there is one JTM45 sound perse'. Which JTM45 sound are you after? The RS 6.6K OT tap with 460V on the plates or Drake 8K OT at 430V on the plates?

Good question! I didn't know there were two JTM45 sounds. I guess I should do some more research regarding them. I am only aware of one JTM45 sound. It's the one with the heavy bass that most guys seem to roll-off. A low-gain sound that is dark with pronounced low mids and a very smooth top. I am definitely not looking for an icepick in the ear. The Jeff Beck Live at Ronnie Scott's DVD revived my interest in that amp. So, which one is it? Will I get that with the Metro JTM45 or should I shoot for something else to get into that ballpark? Does anyone know what the plate voltage is or how the iron compares to RS or Drake for the Metro version? As usual, you guys are giving me an education and providing me with invaluable information. Thanks for that.

BTW, I have been trying to register on the 45watt.com site for about a week. They keep threatening to send me the registration verification info, but it never comes. Anybody had a similar experience?

PCollen - how did your Weber build turn-out? Is the amp what you wanted? Would you do it again the same way or try another route? Thanks.

If you think JB is getting his tone DIRECTLY from his amp, you are grossely mistaken. He usually has one or more effects added between guitar and amp, and via the board.

More later.....I'm in a class.

[vibratoking]

Believe me, I know almost exactly what Jeff uses as far as effects. Off the top of my head, lot's of reverbs, delays, some fuzz, some overdrives, MXR blue box, wah, Leslie simulator, ring mod, talk box. I'm sure I have forgotten some. Many times he has someone other than himself switching these for him during live shows.

My point is that he can play through a Pignose and I will be able to recognize it is him because of his very unique approach to creating notes - volume and bar manipulation, bends, use of right hand technique, etc... He will not have the same basic TONE when playing through a Pignose vs Marshall vs Fender amp.

Back to the JTM45 Metro kit thing. I think rp is right. There is most likely a higher resale value for the Metro kit vs my own build. Of course, that is speaking in general as I might be able to convince a potential buyer that my own build is more valuable. It is another issue to consider. Thanks for all the ideas guys. I always welcome more.

[PCollen]

[quote="vibratoking]

PCollen - how did your Weber build turn-out? Is the amp what you wanted? Would you do it again the same way or try another route? Thanks.[/quote]

The Weber 6M45 turned out very well, although there were some 'integration' issues I had to resolve. Yes, it is the amp I expected. However, I modded it (just can't resist tinkering) into a split- cathode configuration tweaked to my own ear and speaker cabinet, and now I have further modded it by installing a Komet 60 pre-amp mated to the JTM45 power section and it is a killer amp. For Beck-like tones, I would go with the Weber 6M45P kit, based on the JMP Lead Model 1987.

http://www.drtube.com/schematics/marshall/1987u.gif

[tubeswell]

I did several scratch-builds before building my first kit, and I enjoyed every single one of them. Although I got to say, that ordering a kit, complete with faceplates and cabinet, gives a really tidy finish, and you spend about the same amount (or even slightly less, depending on whose kit you get). So if you want to sell it one day, you might find more buyers than if it was a one-off scratch build (not to say that your building skills would be anything less than pristine, but its something worth considering, especially when you get bitten by the bug and eventually have to sell them to make room for more).JM2CW

[ToneMerc]

There's a current thread on the Yahoo JTM45 group about output transformers that you may want to see, it's a good group to join as well.

JTM45 · JTM45-Marshall JTM45 Discussion Group

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/JTM45/

[PCollen]

With regard to Beck and a Pignose, I would have to respectfully disagree. I think his tehniques and creative ideas result in a signature sound. A couple notes and I know it's Jeff. I have seen Jeff more than 20 times, going back to mid-seventies. His sound changes quite a bit from tour to tour where he is using different amps. His tone is very different when he is using Twins compared to a JTM, JCM, etc... Yes, he is a great musician with a signature sound, but in my opinion even the best can't change the basic character of an amp.

Thanks again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0FT7FO5Xe8

Check out Jeff's amps.....Fender Pro Jr's

[vibratoking]

Thanks for pointing out that clip. I hadn't seen it. Jeff probably wishes that clip would swirl into a black hole...never to be seen again. Yup, pro juniors. That is some ugly tone from my point of view. In my opinion, it makes my point. I would know it's him from the technique and phrasing, but I would be questioning what kind of crappy rig he was using if I hadn't seen them on the clip. I am guessing that he went with some tiny amps so that he wouldn't blow away the strings with volume.

He is really struggling to get those harmonics to jump out of those amps. I'll give him credit for stepping up and attempting that song with amps that are so unsuitable for the way he would like to play that song. Jeff always takes risks, for better or worse. It's what makes him who he is. Certainly not the the tone that Jeff recorded that song with. Certainly not his finest moment. It is obvious that he is embarassed by the way he is wacking his forehead lol. I would imagine that he is second guessing his decision.

Thanks again. You didn't comment so I am assuming that you think this proves the tone is all in the player and not in the amp? If so, it's funny how we could perceive it so differently.

Here's a clip with vastly different tone in my opinion. Clams and all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgGvml0cOKA

[Roe]

its a good kit but I'd recommend marstran trannes (partially because of the voltages) and sozo vintage/premium or mustards

[vibratoking]

its a good kit but I'd recommend marstran trannes (partially because of the voltages) and sozo vintage/premium or mustards

There were two kits mentioned, Metro and Weber, so I am confused. Which are you referring to? I would hate to pay the $ for the Metro only to replace the iron and the caps. I would probably kit it myself if I were to go that route. I researched the Weber kits and most guys say that many of the components are crap - knobs, jacks, switches, pilot assembly, and iron. If that is truly the case, I am not thrilled about the Weber option.

Thanks for all the responses and for helping me to "think this through".

[jelle]

Why not email George from metro and tell him what you need, like a kit without trannies or something like that. He'll most likely help.

I'd personally go with George. He's a marshall fanatic and a supernice guy. What else do you need?

jelle