Help! I tried to recap my amp!

General discussion area for tube amps.

Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal

Post Reply
User avatar
tribi9
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:01 pm
Location: KW in ON, Canada.

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by tribi9 »

docz wrote:
And why should I remove that .022uF 1000WV cap between the switch and the 110V terminal on the transformer? What is it's purpose?


Doc-Z
I believe that's what is called "the death cap"

And to be honest I shouldn't have made that statement as I've heard 2 sides. One that It's used for getting rid of buzz or hum but if the cap ever fails it could make the chassis go live.

I've also heard that if the chassis goes live the fuse should reset. Also that the chance of happening can be quite small.

I just shoot for the safe side and remove it just in case.
User avatar
Phil_S
Posts: 6048
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:And why should I remove that .022uF 1000WV cap between the switch and the 110V terminal on the transformer? What is it's purpose?
Google for "death capacitor". It needs to be removed. BTW, a search for "death cap" will get you mushrooms.

Save the cap. It might be the kind the pay silly money for on eBay!
User avatar
Phil_S
Posts: 6048
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:The broken cap went from the center of the 12AX7 (the metal pin in the middle) and then a small wire went from the middle to pin 3 on the 12AX7 tube(Cathode 2 I believe?). I can't find anything that that middle pin might connect to when I look at the tube, is this just used as a terminal for the cap, resistor and pin 3?

What does that resistor and cap actually do? Is that some kind of bypass?
The middle "pin" on the socket is simply a convenient intermediate connection point. I don't like to use it because that small socket is already busy enough.

Yes, pin 3 is the cathode. Typically, there is a bias resistor and a bypass cap connected to ground. The cap is not essential, but it affects tone. The resistor is needed. Anything from about 820 ohms up to about 3K would be typical.
Can I test the amp without that cap in there?
The cathode bypass cap is not essential for operation of the 12AX7. You might not like the tone of the amp, but it will operate OK as a circuit.
The broken resistor seem to have been connected to the center terminal of the reverb pot and ground, is that to get a custom range on that pot? The pot is 1M and the resistor is 80KOhm.
I don't see it on the schematic. If it is on the wiper (center) of a 1M pot, it's not that significant. I'd replace it (82K is nearest standard value) but I think it will operate OK without it. It keeps a minimum amount of impedance on the reverb recovery. It modifies the pot, but not that much.
I'm not sure if pin 9 of the EL84 is connected to ground, it seems to be connected to a number of resistors, caps and then to the 12AX7 tubes.
Pin 9 is the screen grid. I'm not 100% but I think maybe the schematic is not drawn correctly. It doesn't make sense to connect the screen to the power rail AND ground! Don't ground the screen. Schematic says the screen is connected to a 70u cap and the choke (might be a big honking resistor).
Do you guys think it would be possible to power up a 4x12 or 4x10 cabinet with this thing?
Sure. Go for it. Just make sure it is the correct ohm rating. It's not indicated on the schematic. It won't push it very hard, but you might like it, particularly if the speakers have a high efficiency rating.
What are some similar amps this thing might be "modeled" after?
I'm not gonna go there :shock:
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Pin 9 is definately not connected to ground. It is connected to pin 1 and 6 on the other 12AX7 through 100k resistors, and to pin 7 on the 6X4 rectifier tube through a fricking huge 1K resistor, or is it a negative resistor (conductor??), since it says "K -1K Ohm"?

I've found a few of those thingies that start with a "-"

On pin 5 of the 12AX7 there is one that says "K -250k Ohm"
On pin 3 of the EL84 there is one that says "K -130 Ohm"
Between the two 33uF 450V caps there is one that says "K -1K Ohm"

About the death cap, do I just yank it out? or do I have do something else, this is how it is all wired:

[img:800:330]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/422 ... 29ee_o.jpg[/img]

I'm going to power this thing up again, wish me luck!

Doc-Z
User avatar
Phil_S
Posts: 6048
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:Pin 9 is definitely not connected to ground. It is connected to pin 1 and 6 on the other 12AX7 through 100k resistors, and to pin 7 on the 6X4 rectifier tube through a fricking huge 1K resistor, or is it a negative resistor (conductor??), since it says "K -1K Ohm"?
No ground. That's good! Those two 100K resistors are the plate load resistors for the 12AX7. It is sharing the power supply node. Look at the schematic. What you are looking at is the implentation of where these things come together to the right of L1. at the 10u cap (I called it 70u earlier).

Pin 7 of the 6X4 is where the rectifed high voltage "B+" originates. L1, the 1K resistor should be between the screen and the first B+ node. Look at the schematic, the first B+ node (at the 40u cap to the left of L1) feeds the output transformer.
I've found a few of those thingies that start with a "-"
I don't think the "-" has any signifcance. Post a closeup picture?
On pin 5 of the 12AX7 there is one that says "K -250k Ohm"
On pin 3 of the EL84 there is one that says "K -130 Ohm"
Between the two 33uF 450V caps there is one that says "K -1K Ohm"
I think the "K" might be the tolerance rating, like +/-10%, but I don't know what "K' is.
About the death cap, do I just yank it out? or do I have do something else
Clip, not yank, yes, remove it. :)
, this is how it is all wired: <clipped image>
It needs a proper 3 prong cord with a proper strain relief. Target sells cheap 3-prong 8' cords and you can clip off the end you don't need. The green wire gets soldered to a ring lug and bolted to the chassis near where it enters the chassis. A power transformer bolt is OK to use if you must. The black is the hot wire. The black goes first to the fuse and then to the on/off switch. The other side of the switch goes to the power transformer primary. The white wire goes directly to the other power transformer primary wire. To join wires, a wire nut and tape is OK, Western Union splice with solder and heat shrink is better, a butt connector that you crush with a pliers is probably best. Whatever, make a good solid physical connection.
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Ok here are some more pictures.

I removed the "death cap" here is what it looks like, I used a grounded cable I had to replace the old un-grounded cable.

[img:1024:768]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/423 ... 3f98_b.jpg[/img]

I'm not quite sure if our blue wire is equivalent of your black or white wire, I'm actually not sure if we have "hot" and "neutral" here, I think we just have two phases, since you can connect the plugs anyway you want to the wall socket, there isn't anything that assures that one color is designated to a specific phase. But then again I don't really know that much about electricity either.. :)

Here are pictures of the "-" resistors.
[img:1024:768]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/422 ... 0f4a_b.jpg[/img]
[img:1024:714]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2499/423 ... 5f28_b.jpg[/img](first and third from left)

Also I noticed that I had ripped out one of the speaker wires, so I thought I'd replace them with some new ones, I noticed that when I meassured them with my multimeter it said that the two terminals were connected or shorted or what it is called - is that normal?
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2639/422 ... 5312_b.jpg[/img]

I also tried to measure the voltage on the filter caps and the heaters on all the tubes, but I couldn't get a reading, it just said "0" am I doing something wrong with my multimeter? I tried connecting the red one to the heater pin / + side of the cap and the black to ground - is that wrong? I tried adjusting the voltage on the dial but it didn't make a difference. However I was able to measure the AC voltage on the transformer, both the 6volts to the light and 110v and cable from the wall socket.

I also noticed that the resistor that is where I removed the cathode cap from was pressed down so it touched pin 9 of the 12AX7.

But still no glow or heat from the 12AX7s, and I get a heat smell, but no smoke or noise.
Well I heard a faint sporadical clicking sound when I powered off.

Doc-Z
User avatar
Phil_S
Posts: 6048
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

Sorry, I see you are in Norway. I should have taken note.

Blue is neutral and Brown is line (hot). Green with yellow stripe is the redundant ground/neutral. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_2/2.html

The wiring is wrong. The blue goes directly to the transformer lug. Brown goes to the fuse. The other fuse lug goes to the switch. The other lug on the switch goes to the transformer. Again: line (brown)>fuse>switch>transformer. This is for your safety. Please rework it.

I see the K-130 and the like. The "K-" is meaningless. I think it is just branding. It could be tolerance rating. I think it is not important.

You are showing a picture of the output transformer (OT) and saying you put your meter on the terminals and got a measurement? That's right. The OT consists of two coils of wire and the terminals are at each end of the coil. The two coils are separate and there must be no continuity between them or your OT is, as we say, hosed. You might see a single digit reading on one coil and maybe 50-200 ohms on the other. It varies; this is a generalization.

To measure heater voltage, place one probe on each tube pin that's wired. For the 12AX7, these are usually wired for 6.3V. To do this pins 4 & 5 are jumpered together. Place the probes on 4 or 5 (doesn't matter which) and on pin 9. For the EL84 heaters are 4 and 5. For the 6X4, pins 3 and 4 are the heaters. Set your meter to measure AC volts!!!!!

For voltage on the filter caps, set the meter to DC volts. Red probe on the + side of the filter cap, and black probe on the chassis.

It is a good idea to use clips with the probes so you can keep your hands free. Good safety practice is to keep one hand in your pocket while probing a live chassis. This prevents a rush of current across your heart, which can kill you. Wear rubber soled shoes, too, and/or stand on a rubber mat.

You have no glow on the 12AX7's? Will give us close up pictures of the tube sockets and the power transformer? You say there is 6.3V at the transformer, so it is being shunted or disconnected somewhere. you might try to just follow the string (no tubes in the amp) and see where it stops, now that you know how to measure for it. Also, maybe tubes are not properly seated. Try to press them firmly into the sockets. Excessive force is not necessary and is a bad idea.

You have a difficult project for a first timer. Keep trying. You'll get it. It might take a while.
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

Ok, just a quick question before I start rewiring, which of the leads go to 110V and 0V?

Blue->110V
Brown->fuse->switch->0V

or the other way around?

And when I measured the caps using that method, with meter set to DC voltage, I did not get a reading.

When I test the two leads on the speaker transformer image I get zero resistance.

The power transformer has five terminals that go to the different parts in the amp, the first two are labeled (one has a filled dot and one has a unfilled dot) 6.3V, then one labeled 260V, one labeled "E" and the last labeled 260V all three with unfilled dots. I will take some more pictures and post tomorow.

Yes this is a difficult task, but I really do feel that I'm learning a lot from this experience!

BTW. will rubber gloves help me from making myself into a piece of toast?


Again, thank you for all your help so far, I really appreciate it!


Doc-Z
User avatar
Phil_S
Posts: 6048
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by Phil_S »

docz wrote:Ok, just a quick question before I start rewiring, which of the leads go to 110V and 0V?

Blue->110V
Brown->fuse->switch->0V

or the other way around?
It doesn't matter. The transformer is just a length of wire wrapped around a hunk of metal. It is just a labeling convention to indicate one end of the coil from the other.

Your PT has 4 terminals, two marked 110 and two marked 0. In Norway, you have 230V line supply so the transformer needs to be properly configured for it. The two sets of terminals allow for this. Your picture show swires to the outer lugs for 110 and 0. This is the correct wiring. There also needs to be a jumper between the two inner lugs 110 and 0. This combines the two windings, in phase, and makes it into one long winding. Without the jumper, you will not see voltage. I can't see that side of the transformer. If you have the jumper in place, then it is likely that your PT is shorted. I see solder on the inner lugs (terminals), so I think the jumper is there.
And when I measured the caps using that method, with meter set to DC voltage, I did not get a reading.
See above. Either the juimper is missing or there is some other problem.
When I test the two leads on the speaker transformer image I get zero resistance.
There is a primary winding and a secondary winding. Primary goes to the power tube (EL84) and ground. Secondary goes to the speaker. It is likely the primary has very low resistance and your meter can't "see" the difference between 1 and less than one on the primary. Also, to get a reading on the primary, you will need to lift the connection from ground. There is a difference between 0 and open. If you are seeing 0, there is continuity and that's good. If you are seeing an open load (usually displayed as "OL" on the meter), there is no continuity and the transformer is blown (useless).

On the secondary (speaker) side, you should see a reading. It could be as low as 50 ohms, and probably not anywhere near 500 ohms. Transformers vary, so I don't know what you should see exactly. If you see OL, then the transformer is bad. If you see very low ohms (like 10 or 20) there may be an internal short, which is also bad.
The power transformer has five terminals that go to the different parts in the amp, the first two are labeled (one has a filled dot and one has a unfilled dot) 6.3V, then one labeled 260V, one labeled "E" and the last labeled 260V all three with unfilled dots. I will take some more pictures and post tomorow.
The two 6.3V are the filament supply. There should be a twisted pair to those lugs. I see white and blue in the first picture, but it would be better to see a close up.

The other three are the high voltage supply. I see red-black-red. This tells me the two reds are the ends of the winding and the black is the center tap. It is logical for the center tap to be in the middle. The center tap should be grounded to the chassis somewhere. The two red wired go to the plates of the rectifier (6X4), pins 1 and 6.

What I don't like, but can't see clearly, is it looks like there is a black wire from the center tap to one of the 6.3V terminals. I would remove that. I don't know why it is there. However, if your filament wiring is old style, where one wire is run to one tube pin and the other tube pin is grounded, that would work. That is one of the reasons I asked for close ups of the transformer and tube pins. Right now, I can't say for sure about this.
Yes this is a difficult task, but I really do feel that I'm learning a lot from this experience!

BTW. will rubber gloves help me from making myself into a piece of toast?
Rubber gloves, the kitchen or sugrical type, are not adequate to protect you. the kind that would work are too clumsy to wear. Dismiss this thought. Rubber shoes are rubber mat are appropriate. It is a good idea to insulate your body from earth, which is a strong ground potential.
Again, thank you for all your help so far, I really appreciate it!
Please don't mention it! People did this for me when I knew nothing. I am passing it forward. I also started out on a very challenging amp, so let's say I feel for you.

Also, I am very favorably impressed with your English. I am assuming it is a second language for you, but I would never know it. I hope what I write to you is clear to you.

I am leaving to visit relatives this afternoon and will return on Saturday. I don't know if I'll have computer access, so maybe someone else will pick up where I left off.

I have some general concerns about whether you've done something to blow your transformers. It doesn't take much to do this, but what you say does not suggest you've made a mistake that would cause trouble. I remain optomistic that transformers are OK. If you have the amp wired up correctly, you should see voltage at the filter caps and on the tube filaments.

One thing you can do is to disconnect everything from the power transformer (PT) and check the AC voltage on the various pairs of terminals. Do not probe to ground here, just check with black on one and red on the other and check each pair. For the high voltage, check the two reds together and then each red to black. On the red+black you should see half the voltage. Also, if you disconnect the PT take ohm readings on each pair of terminals (and to the CT on the high voltage) and post all of what you find.


Good luck. I'll check back in as soon as I can.

Phil
User avatar
hbamp
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:44 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by hbamp »

Where is that resistor to I suppose ground at the ground from the third filter cap. Picure 1 shows a risistor 2 doesn't. How about that ground bus,
Everyting ok there. Larger pics would be a great help.
Dutch hand build amps
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

It pleases me that you like my english :) It is acutally a funny story, when I was a kid my dad bought a satellite dish. The channels were from England, and there were no subtitles. I used to watch it a lot, and one day I was just able to speak and write english - it was pretty weird.

About the tubes, it is only the two 12AX7s that doesn't light up, the rectifier and output tube light up beautifully.

Ok, I took some more pictures, and I'm going to unsolder thos leads and test the transformer - is it no problem to power that up without anything being connected to it?

Here are some closeups of the power transformer and the tube sockets.

This is an overview so you can see how everything connects:
The cap I took out connected between the switch and the other 110V connection, is this the "jumper" you are refering to? or is it that black cable on the other side?
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2802/423 ... 9701_b.jpg[/img]

This is the end that connects to the wall socket.
[img:1024:768]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/423 ... 207f_b.jpg[/img]

This is the section that connect to the stuff inside the amp.
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2611/423 ... d5c1_b.jpg[/img]

Quick dumb question, is everything still AC on both ends of the transformer? If so why is "E" used as ground, is that because the two phases "phase out" in the middle? (omg. I think I just sounded ridiculously stupid... )

Here you can see the rectifier tube socket, the red wires from the power transformer hooks up to pin 1 and 6, the twisted pair from the 6.3V to pin 3 and 4
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2716/423 ... 0ae2_b.jpg[/img]

Here is the EL84, as you can see the twisted pair is connected to pin 4 and 5, this is also where the blue and white wires connect to the 12AX7s, the pins are used as "hubs"? is that the correct lingo? :)
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2636/423 ... cca2_b.jpg[/img]

Here is one 12AX7, white wire to pin 4 and 5, and blue to pin 9.
[img:1024:768]http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/423 ... 7507_b.jpg[/img]

Here is the second 12AX7, it is connected the same way, it is hard to see because it is so crowded, but I have traced the wires and I can confirm they are connected as the other 12AX7.
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2701/423 ... 5bb0_b.jpg[/img]

About that resistor hbamp mentioned, it is a broken resistor that was hanging in mid air. It appears to have been connected to the middle terminal of the reverb pot, maybe to modify it's function perhaps? But I am not shure, but this is the only place I find a loose lead that isn't connected to anything in the vicinity of the broken resistor.

Final picture is of me measuring the two terminals on the output transformer that connect to the speaker. I was afraid that my description may have been confusing, so I thought a picture might explain it better. The multimeter is set to "->+" I'm not sure what it is called in english, but we call measuring "overgang" to see if to points are connected, it it shows "-1" they are not, if it shows "0" they are, a number between shows a connection with resistance, so I guess it is a basic ohmmeter.
[img:1024:768]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2799/423 ... ace5_b.jpg[/img]

I wish you all a happy new year!

Doc-Z
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

I did some ohm measuring on the power transformer, so here comes more silly questions.

First side (where wall socket connects)

Between the two 6.3V 0.6A terminals I get 1 ohm - (the same reading I get when I connect the two multimeter probes together, not "I" for infinity)

Between first 110V and first 0V I get 33 ohm
Between first 0V and second 110V I get 1 ohm
Between second 110V and second 0V I get 31 ohm
Between second 0V and first 110V I get 64 ohm
Between both 110V I get 33 ohm
Between both 0V I get 31 ohm

Other side

Between the two 6.3V 2A terminals I get 1 ohm
Between first 260V and "E" I get 237 ohm
Between second 260V and "E" I get 221 ohm
Between both 260V I get 457 ohm
Between "E" and both 6.3V 2A I get 1 ohm
Between "E" and ground wire / chassis I get 1 ohm
Between first 260V and ground /chassis I get 237 ohm
Between second 260V and ground /chassis I get 221 ohm

Between all ground "busses" I get 1 ohm

Is it correct that there should be a connection between the different terminals of the power transformer? I thought it was bad to have a connection between phases and ground. Or is it that the resistance is what keeps it from shorting out?

I also measured to see if there was a connection between pin 4, 5 and 9 on the 12AX7's and the power transformers 6.3V terminals, and my multmeter says there is. Does this mean the tubes are broken?

DocZ
User avatar
jjman
Posts: 753
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: Central NJ USA

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by jjman »

With regard to the 2 12ax7s that don't light up, have you measured the ac voltage from the white to the blue heater wire on each socket? If the 2 bad 12ax7s are at "the end" on the heater-wire chain, there is probably a bad wire or solder point.

I don't see any red flags in the resistance figures you posted but when wires are connected some of the figures can be meaningless.

Is it wired for your local voltage? I saw that it's not? That's the 1st step if it's not correct.
If it says "Vintage" on it, -it isn't.
User avatar
billyz
Posts: 1305
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:17 pm
Location: Spokane, WA
Contact:

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by billyz »

Might want to disconnect the speaker from the output transformer and measure it again. If it is still .01 ohm it is shorted. Also, Measure your speaker while you have it disconnected to make sure it is good.

You should be able to measure 6.3 volts AC ,on the 12ax7 pins 4/5 and 9. On some tubes it is difficult to see the filament glow.

If the wiring is solid core it can break very easily, follow the continuity for each wire.
docz
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:16 am
Location: Norway

Re: Help! I tried to recap my amp!

Post by docz »

jjman wrote:With regard to the 2 12ax7s that don't light up, have you measured the ac voltage from the white to the blue heater wire on each socket? If the 2 bad 12ax7s are at "the end" on the heater-wire chain, there is probably a bad wire or solder point.

I don't see any red flags in the resistance figures you posted but when wires are connected some of the figures can be meaningless.

Is it wired for your local voltage? I saw that it's not? That's the 1st step if it's not correct.
I have measured the wires to see if they are conected. I used the ohmmeter to see if the pins of the 12AX7s connect to the pins on the power transformer, and they do, so the wires should be fine - shouldn't they? I haven't powered this thing on since I removed that "Death cap" I'm afraid there is something wrong and that I might kill the thing.

I assume it is wired for my local voltage, since one phase connects to the 110V terminal and the other phase connects to the 0V on the other set of terminals I assumed it was correct for our 220-240V system. I have not modified how this was wired, I just removed the "Death Cap" and I plan to rewire it the way that Phil said.

When I measured the output transformer, the speaker was disconnected, I replaced the wires and when I tried to find which wire to connect to the speaker, I found that both wires were connected to one terminal, and I thought that was a bit strange so I stopped the process. If it is shorted, does that mean I need a new one? Or can I fix it? How do I find out these things?

Doc-Z
Post Reply