Cloth Covered Wire

talbany · Post by **talbany** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:15 pm

Totally Agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. My point being with the nitpickey stuff like how a wire looks..is it really worth the post of what you think a piece of wire looks ugly..The whole thread was directed tword the sonic qualities of the wire we all know what it looks like and how it performs...

Funkalicousgroove · Post by **Funkalicousgroove** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:39 pm

I've used cloth cover, and love working with it, Just use PVC or Teflon for B+ over 200v.

Firestorm · Post by **Firestorm** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:07 am

talbany wrote:Totally Agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. My point being with the nitpickey stuff like how a wire looks..is it really worth the post of what you think a piece of wire looks ugly..The whole thread was directed tword the sonic qualities of the wire we all know what it looks like and how it performs...

Sorry to be an empiricist on a topic where so many people have romantic notions, BUT wire is wire and what it's insulated with makes no difference (as long as it's actually insulated). Fender actually had more trouble with high voltage shorts AFTER they switched to plastic-covered wire (because they ran the B+ under the board and melted through it with subsequent components. Cloth doesn't melt.)

There's no "mojo" to cloth-covered wire: it's easy to work with (because you don't have to strip it), but its only advantage is that cloth wire is typically solid-core and the cloth will totally conform itself to the shape of the metal (so it stays where you put it).

Teflon isn't quite as easy to work with, but it has ths same basic characteristics and it really is insulated.

butwhatif · Post by **butwhatif** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:20 am

Now this is really an interesting thread, albeit a bit hijacked, but that's what
makes this forum great as it is, and that everyone can weigh in. I have to admit that some of the mod work I've done wasn't the prettiest, but made the customer happy. There isn't only one way to get from point a to b. Knowing where to stop seems to be the ticket sometimes--we've all been there---

heisthl · Post by **heisthl** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:28 am

Firestorm wrote:wire is wire and what it's insulated with makes no difference (as long as it's actually insulated).

You forgot about the fragile harmonics....

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

Firestorm · Post by **Firestorm** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:40 am

You forgot about the fragile harmonics....
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=

Oh, that. The voodoo part eludes me (with good reason), but there is -- maybe -- something to capacitive coupling between adjacent wires, or between a wire and the chassis, which might be dependent on the thickness of the insulation. I'd like to see evidence of it on a frequency analyzer, though.

talbany · Post by **talbany** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:41 am

I dispel the notion that cloth wire brings any such mojo to the table. If so I certainly have no evidence. Back before we converted some of our high gain style amps( roughly 60 or so) to PC board we discovered problems in controlling issues with noise.. Thinking the cloth wire just didn't provide enough insulation to shield from crosstalk and HF oscillations we made the switch to PVC..We ordered some real nice wire from Apex Jr.. The next several 5-6 amps we built were no better and in some cases worse.. We tried everything to try to control the noise issues.. DC Filaments as well as lifting the filament center tap 12 dc volts....different grounding schemes. etc..Due to these inconsistencies as well as build times and the increasing orders we moved to PC designs..
Here is where we noticed a more consistent tone as well as a noticeably quieter amp...(When I say noise I am not talking about typical Dumble OD type gain which I consider Mid intensity I am talking everything pretty much dimmed).. Being an amp manufacturer you have to figure there are people out there who will dime the amp....Anything other than tube hiss I consider noise... Now I know and am sure there are many of you who build dead quiet amps.. If you have I praise you. All I am saying is my experience tells me a certain type of (unshielded) wire with a certain type of insulation offers no benefits in Tone, Mojo and issues relating to noise…
When it comes to Looks, performance, costs ease of use…these are all factors you the builder must take into account but if your amps are noisy or in need of some Mojo changing wire in my experience won’t help….

Tony VVT

bnwitt · Post by **bnwitt** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:43 pm

Not all cloth wire is created equal. I buy mine from Doug Hoffman and it is the real thing. I have purchased cloth wire from several other vendors and it all went in the trash because it frayed or was otherwise to hard too work with. The whole point is the ease of use not the look. Attached is a pic of my Asteroid. Notice a lot of cloth wire in the preamp section. Also notice some pvc wire. I think teflon is overkill and too hard to work with. I've not seen a PT with teflon wire leads so I guess the pvc is ok for high B+ I use pvc on the heaters and B+ wires typically. I use cloth anywhere I can because it is so quick and easy.

heisthl · Post by **heisthl** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:09 pm

bnwitt wrote: I've not seen a PT with teflon wire leads .

Mecury Magnetics uses teflon on their output transformers - not sure about their power transformers.

heisthl · Post by **heisthl** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:29 pm

What type of wire i.e. solid or stranded are most people using for signal/plate/cathode/heaters? I use 20 or 22 guage solid for most purposes.

bnwitt · Post by **bnwitt** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:36 pm

I use solid push back and solid pvc on everything. 20 ga on the heaters through the power tubes and then drop to 22ga for the preamp tubes. I use 20 ga on power tube cathode buss connections and all buss ground connections. I use 22ga for signal and plate connections

BobW · Post by **BobW** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:21 pm

Attached is a pic of my Asteroid.

Hey, bnwitt. Did you ever post a schematic of the asteroid?

Funkalicousgroove · Post by **Funkalicousgroove** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:06 pm

I have teflon primaries put on some of my OT's and I use it exclusively throughout the amps because
1) can't melt it (no slips, no melt back)
2) stays where you put it
3) has a higher dielectric strength than any other insulator
4)with a little practice and patience is as easy, if not easier to use than anything.

Guitarman18 · Post by **Guitarman18** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:18 pm

Funk wrote:

I have teflon primaries put on some of my OT's and I use it exclusively throughout the amps because
1) can't melt it (no slips, no melt back)
2) stays where you put it
3) has a higher dielectric strength than any other insulator
4)with a little practice and patience is as easy, if not easier to use than anything.

+1 on that. Teflon has been a real revelation for me. It also allows things to look cosmetically better, without melt back and slips.

tubedogsmith · Post by **tubedogsmith** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:14 am

Funkalicousgroove wrote:I have teflon primaries put on some of my OT's and I use it exclusively throughout the amps because
1) can't melt it (no slips, no melt back)
2) stays where you put it
3) has a higher dielectric strength than any other insulator
4)with a little practice and patience is as easy, if not easier to use than anything.

Judging from the size of the wire in your amp pics I'm guessing you use mostly stranded. Is that right?

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