Mystery 5e3 noise

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AcornHouse
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Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by AcornHouse »

I'm having an issue with my 5e3 build that is proving to confound even my amp tech with 40 years experience with tube amps. I used the Triode kit with classictone transformers.

Here's my tech's report with everything we've tried.
It seems very well assembled, voltages are right on, runs very well, except for one thing:

At <>180 & 240 Hz, there is a weird 'static' or 'arcing' sound that comes into the audio. Kind of a 'zzzt' in the background. The owner noticed it just playing his guitar. We are running it on a sine wave generator, so we can hear any distortion more clearly.

It only happens between 160 and 250Hz, in several 'resonances,' or specific frequencies. It only happens at medium to higher output levels.

Looking at the waveforms on the output tube plates, we do not see anything unusual. The amplifier is not clipping, nor is there 'notch' distortion at the crossover. Looking at the cathodes of the output tubes, at high level, we see a low level <>667 Hz sine wave appear. Adding a larger decoupling cap removes that sine wave, but does not clear up the output distortion. We feel strongly this is an important clue.

We have tried replacing or substituting;

1) All the tubes, all at once. No change of symptom.
2) The speaker and case. (Twice over, with different cabinets, just to be very sure) I even used a portable speaker, set up far from the amplifier, in case it was mechanical vibration induced. I used a bare 'Coffee Can' EV SRO 12" as the test speaker.
3) The output transformer. It has a very nice premium grade USA made one, and we tried a 'regular' metal case OEM style output xfmr.
4) We have tried adding more filter capacity to the power supply B+ lines, reduces the hum a little, but no other change in symptom.

Remember this is a kit built amp, all parts are new.
Every part we have tested reads good.

Our next step is to bring in another 5E3 we have access to, and bridging over the circuits in various places. If you look at the schematic, we can lift the .1 uF coupling caps after the 12AX7 driver tube, and we'll have four wires to jumper; The two caps, the power supply, and the ground. We will use the preamp and driver of one amp, and the output stage of the other. The resulting live test should narrow down whether the problem is in the driver stage or the output stage. We can also reverse the test for verification.

We can do a similar tests in other places too, and narrow it down to four or five components, at which time we will probably shotgun them.
Assuming of course, that the troubleshooting process above yields good results.

We're looking for anyone who has invented this wheel. I'm hoping someone has seen this problem, and can advise us on how to resolve it.
I doubt it is a wrong-wiring problem, as at higher or lower frequencies, the performance is flawless.

Suggestions or questions welcome.
Ok brain trust, GO!
Jana
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Jana »

Did you use any orange drops? (any series)

If so, and this may apply to other similar caps, the leads are not securely fastened to the foils internally. I *think* the foil just makes contact with the lead and then the epoxy shell holds it in place. Any stress or twisting of the lead can cause it to make a less than ideal connection. I have seen this happen before and it is a challenging problem to locate. At certain frequencies, for whatever reason, the lead/foil connection arcs or sputters or does an intermittent connection.
Last edited by Jana on Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jana
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Jana »

Have you tried putting a 47pf or so cap across the input terminals (paralleled with the 1M grid leak)?

I suggest this as another test. It also kind of sounds like the amp is picking up signals from something else (provided everything in the amp eventually checks out)--cell phones, submarines, etc. LOL. Who knows.
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AcornHouse
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by AcornHouse »

I used F&T electrolytics, and Mallory 150s for the coupling.

I'll relay suggestions.
Firestorm
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Firestorm »

If the Triode kit follows the Fender layout, there are two potential problems Gerald Weber used to talk about: 1) the wire that connects the. 02 coupling cap from V2 Pin 1 to the junction of V2 Pin 7 and the 1M resistor is infamously long -- a Mallory 150 could be mounted right across the socket eliminating the long grid wire; 2) the .1 coupling cap on V2 Pin 6 is so close to one of the Bright channel input jacks (and in phase with it) that it can couple; rotating the jack so the tip contact is farther away or rotating the .1 cap to make it perpendicular (and repositioning the 220K) supposedly clears it up. Frankly, that last one seems like it could be a problem with large film and foil caps, but 150s are so much smaller they may be less susceptible. Good luck.
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Richie
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Richie »

can you post a clear pic of the amp guts?
AcornHouse
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by AcornHouse »

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Richie
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Richie »

Are their any 1.5k grid stoppers on the output tubes? if not try putting some there.

Also try lifting the pos side of those black Sprague bypass caps. It could be a simple lead dress issue too. Maybe narrow it down to what sections is causing it.

A lot of the black Sprague turn up being bad. Same with the mica capacitors if they are a newer made ones. And the may measure ok,or seem ok, but cause problems. I know some will say they never had a problem. But myself and many other people I know have. Do the cathode resistors measure ok? They can cause a metallic splatty bzzzt sound
Last edited by Richie on Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Stevem
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Stevem »

Try reversing the installed potision of all the coupling caps one by one!
When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in his car!

Cutting out a man's tongue does not mean he’s a liar, but it does show that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
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rooster
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by rooster »

Hm. I never ground the filament supply center to the primary center tap. Give the filament center it's own ground path if you're going to use it. The 100 ohm resistors are actually better so skip the center tap altogether maybe.

I think Richie speaks to the right thing, also, the 1.5K gridstoppers.. Do as he suggests if you haven't already.

Last note, I've worked on about 15 of these original circuits and at least 5 had an issue similar to what you describe - the sound appeared as the guitar player 'laid' into the amp. In each of these 5 cases the issue was related to the grounding of the tone/volume controls and the OT. (Rust and oxidation.) The steel chassis you are using is certainly from China, but even the Weber chassis can have issues via the chrome plating. In new builds I typically use a Dremel to rough things up a bit plus I use a product called Oxi-Gard on the chassis under the pot, the pot washers, and even the pot threads if I ground to the pots.

I also hate the sound of those white Mallorys. Haha! True. They sound like crap to my ear. They are metalized polyester and different still than the yellow ones of a few years ago. They are not a true OD polyester type cap, something that has been shown time and time again to sound good in a tweed or BF Fender circuit.
Most people stall out when fixing a mistake that they've made. Why?
AcornHouse
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by AcornHouse »

Well, the mystery may remain forever a mystery. I brought up my '54 Deluxe (Lupe!) so he could jumper back and forth and try to isolate problem. Before we started, we plugged in a Strat to both to compare. And, no more noise!
Somewhere along the way, fiddling with some of the suggestions seemed to have cured it. Maybe just a shifted wire/lead dress issue. Maybe the ghost of Lupe (is she still alive?)
Regardless, it's fine now.
Stevem
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Re: Mystery 5e3 noise

Post by Stevem »

My money is on a poor connection in a tube socket should it rear its ugly head again!
When I die, I want to go like my Grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in his car!

Cutting out a man's tongue does not mean he’s a liar, but it does show that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
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