HHO, GEET Pantone, Ram wings, Turbonators

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:42 pm

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:58 pm

Most of the testing is entirely un-scientific and the wild claims are largely unsubstantiated. It's like friggin' prepetual motion, I can draw you a convincing plan for a perpetual motion machine. Entropy still rules the universe.

My favorite claim: "no engine adjustments are necessary". Yeah, right. By screwing with the oxygen ratio on the intake side you screw up yer oxygen ratio on the exhaust side. Oxygen sensor goes into a panic, ECM lights a "check engine" light and throws the engine on to the ultra-rich default map. Fuel mileage goes out the window and yer expensive catalyst does its Chernobyl impersonation due to the rich mixture.

Unless you're well versed in engine controls and capable of burning custom ECM programs... "Kids, don't try this at home".

As a retro-fit to a pre-smog POS it's a different story. It still helps to have an exhaust gas analyzer at the very least, better yet a dynomometer. Show me fuel burn over horsepower in a credible dyno test.

Structo · Post by **Structo** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:02 pm

Yes I have heard that all those hydrogen add on gizmos are scams.

Water injection seems to help combustion but that was something we did back in the 80's.

NOx is a proven performance addon but I don't think it improves mileage.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:45 pm

Structo wrote:Yes I have heard that all those hydrogen add on gizmos are scams.

Not necessarily but some Rube Goldberg POS built by a backyard tinkerer can do more harm than good.

Too much oxygen in the mix = lean mix = engine damage if the engine managment isn't sophisticated enough to catch it. You read that right, too much oxygen on the intake side will rip the compression rings right outta yer pistons. Don't expect the ECM to keep up if you fool it with some add-on.

Structo wrote:Water injection seems to help combustion but that was something we did back in the 80's.

Water injection helps obsolete combustion chamber designs to survive lean mixtures. Modern combustion chambers don't need it. Near as I can tell you can fill yer CBR600 w/ regular (close to 11:1 compression ratio!) and it will live happily ever after.

Old school turbos liked water injection. Pressure makes heat, blah blah, blah. Water cools the whole mess down.

Structo wrote:NOx is a proven performance addon but I don't think it improves mileage.

Yeah, but it sure makse the driver laugh his or her ass off even without gettin' a whiff!

The primary benefit of nitrous is that it cools the intake charge, that and it contains some oxygen. The nitrogen almost does zilch, it's inert. Well, it cools when it goes from compressed to atmospheric. More dense intake charge in general means the engine wants more fuel. Run rich (more fuel) when you hit the button and everything will be o.k. up to mechanical limits of the reciprocating assembly. Lean it out and bad things happen.

It's pretty simple... there's a perfect mix of fuel and oxygen called stoichiometry. That's a perfect burn regardless of fuel, no oxidizer or fuel left over. It get less simple when we want to save fuel, that's an oxidizing mixture. Fuel all gone, oxygen left over. The bad news is that's exactly how an oxygen/acetylene torch works, excess oxygen means that the oxygen will use whatever is available for fuel... like steel plate for instance. Or your piston crowns in this case.

Rich is just dandy up to a point for high performance. More fuel than oxidizer. Beyond a very narrow point there are diminishing returns. Too rich burns a lot of fuel and loses horsepower. Most old school high performance engines are set up to run a little rich because it's forgiving, you're not riding that narrow band where it will hurt the engine if it leans out.

Rich = sucks for fuel economy.

Lean = rocks for fuel economy. But don't overdo it, you'll save pennies in gas and spend Bennies on pistons!

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:47 pm

Hy Casey, Structo.
I'm a mechanical engineer working in renewable energies. Both HHO and Pantone are used in our 88000cc 750rpm 2,5MW turbodiesel engines, and many smaller engines. Both with excellent results.

"Most of the testing is entirely un-scientific and the wild claims are largely unsubstantiated." That is true if you don't want to find scientific tests and studies on it. Search HRG, Hidrogen Rich Gas.

HHO can be mounted AS IS in carburettor engines. For injection engines with lambda sensor, you need to change the response of the lambda, otherwise the excess O2 in the exhaust lead the chip to inject more fuel.
Obviously there is a sweet spot in the HHO production.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:56 pm

roberto wrote:HHO can be mounted AS IS in carburettor engines. For injection engines with lambda sensor, you need to change the response of the lambda, otherwise the excess O2 in the exhaust lead the chip to inject more fuel.
Obviously there is a sweet spot in the HHO production.

Right. And how many backyard tinkerers are gonna optimize the package? Don't spend too much time thinkin' about that one, the answer is close to none.

Ideally you'd have an aftermarket manufacturer offering the package as a generator, hardware and a chip. But... in practice you instantly run afoul of EPA regs for automotive use. If it's not OEM or EPA approved it's illegal, big fine when installed on "smogged" vehicles. Those rules are in place to prevent half-assed tinkerers from cruisin' down the freeway with a black cloud in tow... which is what you'll get in many cases if you don't know or don't care enough to make it work correctly.

Lotsa good science on YouTube...

roberto wrote:Hy Hidrogen carburettor

Lending credibility 'cuz in general engineers can't spell.

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:32 pm

CaseyJones, have you ever tried it? Can you report your experience about it?

As I said I've some big boys running that way, and both emissions and fuel consumption are way lower than usual.

"how many backyard tinkerers are gonna optimize the package?" Please read some of the links I've posted. Search HHO on ebay. You'll see MANY complete packages. Ready to go also on injection engines. To chenge che lambda output you can just use a trimmer. That's all.

Please check the links again.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:21 pm

roberto wrote:"how many backyard tinkerers are gonna optimize the package?" Please read some of the links I've posted. Search HHO on ebay. You'll see MANY complete packages. Ready to go also on injection engines. To chenge che lambda output you can just use a trimmer. That's all.

I've looked at the eBay offerings. And laughed. Laughed my ass off.

It's not just a matter of screwing around with the oxygen sensor, the entire fuel curve must be re-calibrated for it to work correctly. They're not "ready to go". If they're not a correctly calibrated package (hardware plus chip) for a specific vehicle they're bullshit. They're illegal in North America and in most of Europe as well, no EPA approval here, no TUV approval in Germany, etc., etc..

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:29 pm

roberto wrote:CaseyJones, have you ever tried it? Can you report your experience about it?

As I said I've some big boys running that way, and both emissions and fuel consumption are way lower than usual.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:47 pm

roberto wrote:CaseyJones, have you ever tried it? Can you report your experience about it?

As I said I've some big boys running that way, and both emissions and fuel consumption are way lower than usual.

My experience is that if one purchases a "hydrogen boost" system via eBay and installs said system:

A) One instantly voids any manufacturer's warantee of the modified vehicle.

B) One is instantly in violation of U.S. law regulating modification of pollution controlled motor vehicles. Perform said modification on a commercial vehicle i.e. a truck the fine is rather steep. Car, truck, whatever... the fines start at $10k.

C) Most vendors of said system state that it will confound the engine management system and at the very least light the "check engine" light. Further, "reputable" vendors state that the system should be removed prior to bringing the vehicle to an annual safety and emissions inspection. Simply put, if the engine shows fault codes when connected to OBDII it will not pass inspection.

D) If the engine codes and the ECM switches to its default map the net result will be poor fuel economy, exactly the opposite of the desired result.

There is some work yet to be done to apply the system to passenger cars. Most vendors don't even sell a system, they sell a gadget. The rest of the R & D is up to the end user. The end users for the most part fall woefully short of an optimum configuration.

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:06 pm

Well, AGAIN, have you ever tried them? Your experience is NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL.
I've suggested to search on ebay because it's the easyest way to find SOME parts. Not everything. And also with a simple lambda regulation, effects are 20% on MPG, and astonishing for emissions.

If you are talking about legality, homologation as an aftermarket is absolutely difficult.
If you say they are BS, AGAIN you have not read (just an example) the links:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/r ... &dist=hppr
http://www.econologie.com/diesel-renaul ... -3772.html

So, now, please say hello to one of the big boys running on what you call BS.

Merci beaucoup.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:03 pm

roberto wrote:Well, AGAIN, have you ever tried them? Your experience is NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL

I'm feelin' generous today so I'll let that one go.

roberto wrote:I've suggested to search on ebay because it's the easyest way to find SOME parts. Not everything.

Yeah, right. We all know that eBay is a fantastic source for reliable and vetted claims.

roberto wrote:And also with a simple lambda regulation, effects are 20% on MPG, and astonishing for emissions.

Your experience is with industrial diesels. Mine is with EPA approved gasoline engines.

The credible claims are a 20% improvement in fuel economy under ideal conditions. (Tires grossly overinflated? Minimal aero and mechanical drag? Timing at impractical settings?) The science falls apart when you scrutinize the more grandiose claims.

If the ECM lights a check engine light the "system" is sub-optimum, period.

roberto wrote:If you are talking about legality, homologation as an aftermarket is absolutely difficult.

There's an absolutely legal solution for North America. I'm just a dumb-ass motorhead, I won't bring it up. You figure it out.

roberto wrote:So, now, please say hello to one of the big boys running on what you call BS.

Merci beaucoup.

Speakin' o' merci... Lord have mercy, Tony... let's make a deal. If you don't bring Renault into this I won't bring up Fiat.

roberto · Post by **roberto** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:48 pm

Casey, you feel more ridicolous post by post. You must speak about real proved effects, not about what could and what could not be by supposition.

We are talking about "it works" or "it doesn't". And it works. They both works. And 20% is on SAME CONDITIONS.

Every time you try to set the whole thing as a BS. This is not. So please stop trolling and start reading.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-3431
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2000-01-2206
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2005-01-0232
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/981920
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-1270

If you need to see some small engines pictures, here we are:

dartanion · Post by **dartanion** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:59 pm

I am not sure what you are saying is true CJ. Altering a vehicle in the US by changing the ECM/Computer/chip IS legal as long as you conform to pollution control standards. This means you can free alter your vehicle so long as it passes safety and pollution inspections. Even if you fail, you can still get your car passed through a few alternative methods.

As well, a manufacture cannot VOID a warranty if you change parts on your vehicle. The argument here is that aftermarket parts are again acceptable as you cannot void someones warranty for installing a tires, brakes, transmission, GPS, stereo, hi-po exhaust, you name it. Those new parts are warranted by their manufacturer and not the vehicle's manufacturer. Some owner's manuals still state voiding of warranties for these things, which is not legal.

For what Roberto is talking about, this science has been around for a long time and it's nothing horribly new. It just hasn't been fully developed yet. Some of these things may not pan out for certain applications, but you can't throw out blanket statements like "This is BS" or "It doesn't work" or "You're a fool!" Seems that most new good ideas are always met by naysayers that are "in the know". You may know a lot about what you do, but you don't know everything.

The NOx comments are also taken completely out of context. I read this as meaning a reduction in NOx emissions, which is a good thing. Nothing was stated about N20 (Nitrous Oxide) which is a performance enhancing gas. NOx is a very simple, generic term for Nitric Oxide or other mono nitrogen - oxides. NOx gases are precursors to smog, which is a photochemical reaction with VOCs (found in almost every manufactured good and commonly discussed as off-gassing). Reducing NOx emissions will help remove the brown cloud that hangs over most cities.

Also, CJ, I'd watch what you say about this stuff as there are many folks that are actually working on these things in their basements, garages, and backyards and being very successful. Some of these folks hang out here too. Innovation happens where it happens. Doesn't have to arise from some large corporate R&D group for it to be viable.

CaseyJones · Post by **CaseyJones** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:20 pm

roberto wrote:Casey, you feel more ridicolous post by post. You must speak about real proved effects, not about what could and what could not be by supposition.

We are talking about "it works" or "it doesn't". And it works. They both works. And 20% is on SAME CONDITIONS.

Same conditions?! I see where we're gettin' balled up. Your experience is in a stationary engine application. Big ol' diesel, consistent RPM, consistent load, fairly consistent temperature. It's a Flat Earth Society application. Cuz I'm here to tell ya, there's a lot more to makin' it work properly on the street.

dartanion wrote:I am not sure what you are saying is true CJ. Altering a vehicle in the US by changing the ECM/Computer/chip IS legal as long as you conform to pollution control standards. This means you can free alter your vehicle so long as it passes safety and pollution inspections. Even if you fail, you can still get your car passed through a few alternative methods.

In California?! Try it and tell me how you make out.

dartanion wrote:As well, a manufacture cannot VOID a warranty if you change parts on your vehicle. The argument here is that aftermarket parts are again acceptable as you cannot void someones warranty for installing a tires, brakes, transmission, GPS, stereo, hi-po exhaust, you name it. Those new parts are warranted by their manufacturer and not the vehicle's manufacturer. Some owner's manuals still state voiding of warranties for these things, which is not legal.

Hell, yeah they can! Cobble some widget to the intake tract of yer Prius, take it to yer dealer and see what they say.

If you have anything aftermarket under the hood that's the first thing the dealer is gonna point to when something breaks.

dartanion wrote:For what Roberto is talking about, this science has been around for a long time and it's nothing horribly new. It just hasn't been fully developed yet. Some of these things may not pan out for certain applications, but you can't throw out blanket statements like "This is BS" or "It doesn't work" or "You're a fool!" Seems that most new good ideas are always met by naysayers that are "in the know". You may know a lot about what you do, but you don't know everything.

I can say whatever I like.

I know how to make this thing work for an automotive application. It ain't simple, it's well beyond the skill set of the backyard tinkerer to make it work correctly. Yet that's the market most of the eBay tricksters are sellin' to. "Build the kit, bolt it up, enjoy 20% better fuel economy with NO ill effects."

dartanion wrote:The NOx comments are also taken completely out of context. I read this as meaning a reduction in NOx emissions, which is a good thing. Nothing was stated about N20 (Nitrous Oxide) which is a performance enhancing gas. NOx is a very simple, generic term for Nitric Oxide or other mono nitrogen - oxides. NOx gases are precursors to smog, which is a photochemical reaction with VOCs (found in almost every manufactured good and commonly discussed as off-gassing). Reducing NOx emissions will help remove the brown cloud that hangs over most cities.

By context Structo is talking about nitrous oxide.

It's a no-brainer if you know anything about automotive engine controls. If the ECM (Engine Control Module) gets off map (out of spec) input from the oxygen sensor it can't adjust its fuel injection and ignition program to compensate for the off-map data. It then ignores the oxygen sensor and switches to a default map with very high fuel flow parameters. It's dirty from an emissions perspective and it's thirsty from an economy perspective. The hydrocarbon emissions overload the catalyst, it literally melts. As far as being "green" that's the reality of it, cruisin' down the freeway wif a melted catalyst and wonky engine management sure ain't gonna earn ya many points wif the Greenies.

dartanion wrote:Also, CJ, I'd watch what you say about this stuff as there are many folks that are actually working on these things in their basements, garages, and backyards and being very successful. Some of these folks hang out here too. Innovation happens where it happens. Doesn't have to arise from some large corporate R&D group for it to be viable.

OOooh! I'm skeered!

Seriously, for every person capable of making this work correctly there are a hundred more who will get screwed buyin' some junk on eBay that ain't gonna work. The bullshit part is when I hear someone say "all you have to do is fool the oxygen sensor" 'cuz that works in a Flat Earth application for stationary diesels. There's a lot more to it to make it work correctly on the street.

In my neck of the woods we're anti-Corporate.

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HHO, GEET Pantone, Ram wings, Turbonators

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