Gibson Factory Raided at Gun point

[talbany]

Through a bit of research I just discovered that counter to what I'd run across in a court decision about another agency, the Lacey Act DOES after all allow the U.S. to interpret another country's laws differently than they themselves do. There can be a violation even if the foreign law isn't enforced in that country, and even though the violation may not be a criminal one in the foreign country it will be here (see: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/ ... Primer.pdf). In other words, you could be totally compliant according to foreign law as required by Lacey, and yet be arrested because the U.S. decides to interpret those laws differently! Any lawyers out there? am I missing something here?..This is why (as far as I read it) even if you have all the correct documentation on your wood it can still be confiscated and fined

The Lacey primer also states that for both paper and electronic submissions, the steps used in processing any submission will include:

"Declarations vetted for accuracy and compliance."

"Importer contacted if vetting reveals errors."

Through my source in contact with Natalie at LMI, she says this not only didn't happen, but that FWS refused to talk to them when LMI found the error and tried to get it corrected:

"The broker for LMI had someone new working in their office who listed the "entry" as veneers <6mm despite all other paperwork listing it as sawn wood and fingerboards in excess of 6mm. The broker sent a letter explaining the error and attempted to contact FWS to correct the entry, but they refused to speak to him. A copy of the letter was sent to LMI as well as FWS.”
The more I read up on this the more confused I become!!..
Someone needs to do something to safeguard your personal possessions across borders..Perhaps a knid of passport for your guitar would be a good thing!

My apologies for getting that info wrong and sorry to hear about everyone's troubles..

Tony

[qtone]

Hmm I bought alot of wood from lMI many fingerboards slotted and over 6 mm
never had a problem buying them or getting them shipped within the Usa..

The Feds do not have to answer to anybody which is bad for the small guy
or even Gibson .

We shall see what comes of this.. I doubt Gibson gets 1m dollars back though or the wood id be shocked if they got either back.

Shock and awe right on US soil.

[husky]

It is really a bureaucratic mess and like John Suhr said at TGP, it looks like he would have to pay a $190 fee to put one abalone dot on a neck.

I don't understand this bit at all?

You need to have a been registered with Fish and Game $100
Anytime you make any shipment that could be confused with endangered species like certain shells you need to file a permit $90 stating where it came from and what it is. This permit is supposed to be filed any time the consumer cross a border as well. So yes if I do an Abalone logo I still need to tack on at least $90 just to cover the filing fee. It is really getting ridiculous. Most builders are looking for alternate materials now. IF you dont file the permit it is a $250 fine or much much worse if they smell you are trying to pull the wool over their eyes. You can even have a 400 year old ivory comb that was made in to an ivory nut last year and they will confiscate that guitar for sure.

John Suhr www.suhrguitars.com

[talbany]

For what it’s worth, Indian wood dealers are organizing and involving their government:
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... zkiewicz/2

Let's hope they make a dent!!

John.. good to see you here and thanks for the input..

Tony

[qtone]

I got a bone nut they can have .
I gotja bone nut right here..
gahead take it you know you want it so
gahead.

in my best dice clay voice
oh yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
and after dat you get the abloneeeeeeee pearl necklace
yea..

Signed Haywood Jablome

[talbany]

Cracking down on the church going pie bakers...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123932034907406927.html

The Pie Act clearly states..
You must have your pie baked in a certified kitchen with documented food source before you bring it to church or we will take your pie and fine your ass!!

Tony

[cbass]

I think getting fined for a pie would be enough to send me over the edge.
I guess thats why kids cant bring homemade cookies or cake to school parties anymore.

It's agood thing the Gov't is here to protect us otherwise you could end up with some of that awful raw milk.Those sneaky Amish are pushing.It doesn't even have artificial steriods,growth hormones, and antibiotics in it.

[ER]

I was trying to put together a coop/rental basis commercial kitchen for a while so people could make salsas jams jellies cheese baked goods marinated meats etc. to be able to do more than just sell unprocessed items at farmers market, I ran into nothing but headaches and brick walls.

It's all about lack of freedom and control, they want to herd us all into cities so we can become wage slaves for corporations and they can have better control over us. Saying they want to stimulate rural economies is all BS and only a means to do contract work on telecom installations etc. The real aim is to protect the middleman and the contractors/corporations/ special interest groups.

We've lost over half the dairies on our county due to over regulation (guilty till proven innocent with the EPA/regional water boards) and low milk prices for the dairy men, but go to the store and has the price of milk dropped? If you have less than 5000 milking cows you might as well give up. The processors make all the money. No dairyman pasteurizes milk on his property, they ONLY sell raw milk, it's just that YOU can't buy it, only the processor to make it "safe" and bring it up to full market price where all the profits are. It's like this all across the board in Ag. Go big or move to the city/join the military. There is no next generation to grow our food.

-E

[talbany]

War on Lemon aid stands..WTF.. ..Your kid can't even open up a Lemon aid stand..What message is that sending..Pretty sad really!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... de-stands/

Tony

[NickC]

................. It's like this all across the board in Ag. Go big or move to the city/join the military. There is no next generation to grow our food.

-E

The big agri-businesses are pushing genetically modified seed that prevents farmers from being able to generate their own seed. While there may be some benefits to genetically modified seed, the downside is it makes farmers completely dependent upon giant corporations like Monsanto.

[John_P_WI]

One can not confuse the ag business with with the OP. Corn has been crossed or hybrid for many many years. I grew up on a very large ag business and anyone who is not associated with ag can not imagine the risk and gamble associated. It costs a minimum of $500 per acre to plant corn. This does not include the costs of a $150k corn planter pulled behind a $100k+ tractor. Planting a 1000 acres is small, many operations are 3 or 4 times larger. Multiply that by $500 per acre and soon you will be in debt 500k to 2 million DOLLARS USD (for 4 thousand acres planted) even before anything grows. If you cash rent, add another $200 min per acre.

SO all of that said, do you understand why farmers only use the best seed that they can? Now if it is a good year - or bad year - you get to fight the bad weather, mud, snow etc and take your hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of harvesting equipment out to gather your grain just to pay drying and storage costs...

If anything the govt has increased the cost of equipment significantly by demanding more efficient diesel engines and emission controls. Farming is not for the weak of heart any more. I left in 1983 to pursue engineering, a hell of a lot safer.

Yes I miss it.

[NickC]

One can not confuse the ag business with with the OP. Corn has been crossed or hybrid for many many years. I grew up on a very large ag business and anyone who is not associated with ag can not imagine the risk and gamble associated. It costs a minimum of $500 per acre to plant corn. This does not include the costs of a $150k corn planter pulled behind a $100k+ tractor. Planting a 1000 acres is small, many operations are 3 or 4 times larger. Multiply that by $500 per acre and soon you will be in debt 500k to 2 million DOLLARS USD (for 4 thousand acres planted) even before anything grows. If you cash rent, add another $200 min per acre.

SO all of that said, do you understand why farmers only use the best seed that they can? Now if it is a good year - or bad year - you get to fight the bad weather, mud, snow etc and take your hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of harvesting equipment out to gather your grain just to pay drying and storage costs...

If anything the govt has increased the cost of equipment significantly by demanding more efficient diesel engines and emission controls. Farming is not for the weak of heart any more. I left in 1983 to pursue engineering, a hell of a lot safer.

Yes I miss it.

That is an excellent, eye-opening perspective. Thanks for sharing that information. It certainly illustrates the enormous amount of work and risk of capital involved in farming.

[qtone]

Yes it tells me they are planting the wrong crops . I feel badly for the farmers in this country its pathetic. Why on earth is industrial hemp illegal ?
China Canada and many other countries are growing it and we import it from them...? you cant get a fly high on it either so there is nothing illegal about it.
Which brings me to the illegal part Billions of dollars per state could be made if they legalized it and allowed it to be grown in the USA Billions of dollars per state.. They could tax that and rebuild all the roads in the united states or put it into education or helping those that need help.
The medical uses are proven its used to aid cancer patients and help Ms
Montel Williams has Ms not to mention anxiety and nausea hypertension it should be legalized and taxed and it should be up to the states to do that not the federal government. 21 years is the age to drink or buy ciggs which both kill you proven fact but that does not stop anyone either...
What they are not reporting is the usage of herb went down in teenagers in California and other states . Amsterdam it dropped as well but for some reason they wont report the truth ?? Big Pharm already has patents on it and why ? Because its about $$$$$$ and people wont eat the garbage they give us which destroys liver kidneys ect.. It is just about $$$ if the big pharm and tobacco cant make money or alcohol drops off at a rapid rate then what ? People start living longer and they cant control the population rate and keep those medical bills through the roof. The drug war is a joke and it is a failed policy which is driving up murders along the borders the reason they are coming here in the first place is supply and demand
simple we demand it they will supply it we supply our own there is no demand if its legalized the demand can be met. Billions of dollars per state.
I do not advocate teenagers having access to that but they do anyway and its easier to get then alcohol or cancer sticks for teens anyway...
makes no sense at all.... nor does seizing wood or bone from someone who is trying to build guitars... I read today 3 people or at least 2 have entered the country with plans to set off devices with chemicals they are in the country now they should be focused on that vs some one smoking weed to calm themselves...or have an appetite from chemo or be able to function from MS its pathetic.

[ER]

Yeah for the farmer seed is the least of their overhead, but once again it's the bank involvement and control over the source of our food supply (through patents on living organisms, environmental regs, etc.) and government aided monopolization that's the issue. You need crop insurance just like you need mortgage insurance, because you don't really own your crop the bank or creditor does. And then you have a secretary of ag like Vilsack (ex Monsanto board) appointed by Obama and more taxes go to steal more control. All the category 4 diesels are coming out of china, and many replaced with tax dollars and it just goes on and on.

Every aspect of our economy is routed (by government constructed laws and tax code) through wall street (another middle man) so they can take their cut. You ever wonder why the only way you can save for retirement is with 401K etc. that they can play with like a bunch of crap shooters but you get major tax penalties for withdrawal or can only "borrow" it from yourself. You can't direct your retirement to gold or something real. Then you die at 65 and 1/5 years, they're statistically banking on it. Even medical savings is a use or loose situation, what you don't put into the overinflated system they keep anyways.

It's gone way to far. Anyone that doesn't think so is complicit, ignorant, or believes the lies. People look at Bernanke and the Fed like it's freaking groundhog day or something. He comes out of his hole and if he sees his shadow the recession is over. Take another asprin so you can continue to hit yourself over the head with a hammer.

The Mohagany and Rosewood on my new chinese weisenborn is nicer than the same on my 1929 gibson LO I used to have.

[John_P_WI]

I'll tell ya ER, the one thing that scares me more than anything is the food supply - the amount of available and the safety of. I'm a voracious gardener and eater of my garden produce. Mostly "heirloom" or open pollinated varieties that I can save seed from year to year. All is good but with winters so long here in WI I would starve the other 9 mo of the year if I had to depend on my own stuff. Not to be an alarmist, but we all should have some self sufficiency if possible. Sorry for going so far off OP topic. I just wish things were more simple and hope things become "better".