Need Pricing Help (please)

[sll]

Hey all,
I could use some input from you guys. I have been asked to build a few amp conversions in tolex covered head cabinets. I need some opinions from other players about how much these would be worth to players to decide if it's worth doing. How much should I charge for these amps?
Thanks Guys for any input you can share.

Info on the amps is:

[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
https://youtu.be/4vVNFjWatKU

This amp was designed and constructed using the basic foundation of a 1960s (Akai M8) Roberts 770X tube reel to reel tape recorder. The amplifier circuitry has been optimized to specifically serve as a guitar amp rather than as hi-fi equipment. Where practical the original vintage components, including the tubes, have been kept.

There are 2 instruments inputs which share the common volume and tone controls. The 2 inputs however employ separate, and different, input stage tubes and therefore sound very different. The first input uses an EF86 (6267) tube. These tubes were used in 1960s vintage VOX amps, and are still used in some Dr. Z, Matchless, and other boutique amplifiers. The 2nd input uses a 12AX7 (12AD7) tube. 12AX7s are the most common preamp tubes used in guitar amplifiers such as Fender, Mesa Boogie, and Marshall. All of the tubes are the original vintage 1960s tubes. This amp is very quiet (background noise and hum) and breaks up nicely at reasonable volume levels.

The tone circuit uses a modified passive Baxandall/James circuit (Bass and Treble controls) similar to the type of tone stacks used in the original Ampeg, Orange, and some Dr. Z amps. Additionally, a boost switch increases the gain and frequency response of the amp providing additional tonal flexibility.

The output stage is a single-ended class A power amp. This amp uses an EL84 (6BQ5). Single-ended class A amps were used in many lower power 1950s-60s Fender Tweed and Blackface amps and in Vox's AC-4, which also used the EL84 tube. The amp uses a 6X4 tube rectifier. This amp works great for rehearsal, small venue use, and especially studio recording.[/font]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mveip4iprwp7 ... 5.jpg?dl=0

[SoulFetish]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The question I would be asking is how much can you charge so that it's worth it for you to do?
To answer that, I would need to know a couple of things: Is your primary source of income made as a technician? What is your cost of materials and tools (plus shipping) needed to complete each amp? Have you built one before? How much time will it take to build each one? Then add 15-20% to your time and cost, because shit happens, and come back with some figures and we'll go from there.

[sll]

Thanks Soul Fetish. I've built about a dozen of them so far, almost all of them for friends, so I have a good handle of my costs. I really don't have a good idea of the market value and price elasticity yet.

[SoulFetish]

Fair enough, I can understand that you don't want to publish your costs. As far as market value, are you the only one building these? It's a nice looking build. What would you like to get for these (Or at least, what were you thinking about)?

If you've built a dozen, then you have a pretty good handle on the time and processes involved in construction. I'd probably look at what people were getting for Bogen/PA type conversion projects as a starting point. After subtracting your total cost of manufacturer, divide the remainder by your total man hours from start to completion. That will leave you with your hourly rate. Are you happy with that amount?
Regardless, if it were me, I would start at a price that I couldn't afford (or at least wouldn't pay ).

[sll]

Hi SoulFetish, I wasn't trying to be vague, I don't mind sharing my costs. My plan is really just to sell enough of them at market value to subsidize selling them to friends and family at basically cost.
The tape recorders are running between $250 and $300 which provides the platform for 2 amps. Additional parts run about $100. The cabinet runs somewhere between $150 and $200.

I am retired and originally did this as a hobby but it probably takes me 24 hours to remove the unneeded circuitry and then construct the amp circuit.

Although there are others converting these units I believe that I am taking a different approach which is resulting in a unique sonic result.

I don't plan on selling any through commercial channels only through music industry contacts through friends such as my friend who recorded the video for me.

Thanks again for your input.
S

[thetragichero]

so are you buying the cabinets or building them? i can make a lot of amp heads out of a $50 sheet of sandeply from home depot. they'll rip it in the store with their sweet sheet goods saw so you won't have to worry about making long straight cuts. i use butt joints, hardwood dowels, and wood glue. ain't fancy but strong and nobody will care how it's constructed once tolex is on. router table and table saw cost me about a hundred bucks used
i used to hate the woodworking aspect of building amps but now that i've got a workflow it's kind of soothing

[sll]

I'm buying the cabinets from a friend of mine. He will custom make one or make the design I decided to standardize on. Here are some of his cabinets.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/06vxqk8zecz4 ... VQO8a?dl=0

Thanks,
S

[thetragichero]

yes i'd definitely look into making your own. for about what you're paying apiece you should be able to find the tooling needed (facebook marketplace/craigslist/pawn shops/etc) to make these for cheap as it's all butt joints (besides the one with miter joints)
not knocking your friend's work, it's plenty servicable. but even a hack woodworker such as myself (my former shop teacher father is the artisan) can make em (tolex and corners offer superior protection to bare wood and hide a lot of sins)

[sll]

Nice thetragichero, thanks.

[R.G.]

$150 for the half-tape-recorder, $100 for additional parts, $200 for the cab; adds up to $450 parts cost.
Labor cost? Hmm.Skilled techs really need to get $75 to $100 an hour, maybe more to survive. This is the one that drives costs up. What price is your time? Even $50 an hour makes the labor alone $1200. If you just make your labor cost equal to parts cost, you're at $18.75 an hour for your skilled labor. That may be OK for you if you enjoy the work.

I'd net this out as follows:
At $450, you're giving away your work time, just because you like it. Actually, you're losing money, as the intangibles of solder cost, electricity, etc are not in the costs, even if small.
At $15 an hour (what the burger flippers are trying to get) you could sell them at $800-$900, being paid something for your work, presumably skilled.
At skilled-tech rates, you'd need to sell them for $1650 or more.
Between $450 and $900, you're mostly donating your labor to harvest funds for building more for your friends.
At $1000 and up, you're making some money, harvesting more parts for friends, and being paid some for your hours.

But you knew all that.

The only good way to find out what the market will bear is to enter the market. I'd suggest speculatively building one or two, picking a price where you'd be happy to make the deal over and over, and advertising them at that price. They'll sell or not. If they get snapped up, build a few more and raise the price a little.

I suspect that any guess on sales price is just that - a guess.

[sll]

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I really appreciate it. I've decided that I can price them at $600 with the tolex head cabinet.
Again, thanks,
S

[Phil_S]

I have a true story that may speak to this. (I have no interest in making amps for sale because the accountant/business side from my professional life tells me there is too much liability. I keep thinking about that woman who spilled the fast food coffee on her legs and then sued successfully for punitive damages.) I'm strictly a hobby builder. Forgive the indulgence if it misses the mark.

Several years ago, a daughter of a friend needed a guitar amp. I found out quite by accident. I took a shine to her and offered to build something to suit her taste, which I did for her as barter for the insides of an Organo that her parents had. (An organ tube amp; Google for it.) She's probably had it 10 years or more and gigged with it for a while. She tells me she still uses it. She returned it for some needed service and I loaned her my 5B6-like amp. One of her friends played the 5B6, liked it and wanted to buy it. Truthfully, I'd have given it away, but that rubs me the wrong way -- not for a stranger. My philosophy is that, among other things, fair payment instills a sense of value in the buyer. Sell it too cheap, the buyer doesn't value it, and it is treated accordingly. Initially, I ignored the request, but there was a 2nd inquiry. I asked for $600 -- maybe this was 10 years ago -- which I thought was a bargain basement price. As expected, the individual didn't bite. In this particular instance, it was my belief that the buyer didn't really value the amp. (My own assessment of this amp is that it is a really special build and sounds great. Cosmetics are good, too. Ignore that temporary bit of cardboard spacer on the turret board.)

This is a long winded way of saying, Don't be bashful. If you are going to do it, be bold. This is a boutique level item, not some off-the-shelf factory production item. FWIW, I 2nd what R.G. says.

[pompeiisneaks]

I have a true story that may speak to this. (I have no interest in making amps for sale because the accountant/business side from my professional life tells me there is too much liability. I keep thinking about that woman who spilled the fast food coffee on her legs and then sued successfully for punitive damages.)

I do want to note that people often misunderstand this lawsuit. The woman had 2nd degree burns on her legs. The coffee was at or near boiling temperature, not the common drinking temperature we often use for coffee in most places.

She won because it was extremely negligent behavior. I know many people sue for no reason, and this case is sadly used as an example of it, but it's the EXACT reason someone should sue.

I don't want to make your concern less valid, it is valid, as amps can kill, not give second degree burns. But there are very clear safety processes a builder can use to ensure an amp fits with expected safety requirements... but, just sayin.

~Phil

[sll]

Agree completely. Thanks Phil.