New tubes - Alessandro

[wingobingo]

Just need some expert recommendation/advice: Have an Alessandro Working Dog Doberman. Time to change tubes. Would like to put in something that might give it some more headroom/ more high end vox type chime. EL34's and 12ax7's. Any ideas are really appreciated

[wingobingo]

Just need some expert recommendation/advice: Have an Alessandro Working Dog Doberman. Time to change tubes. Would like to put in something that might give it some more headroom/ more high end vox type chime. EL34's and 12ax7's. Any ideas are really appreciated

Anyone with any ideas on this - or is this a bit simplistic for this forum? I don't know a lot about electronics (but I do know what sounds good and what doesn't) and any help with this is much appreciated

[trane34]

Maybe try the gear page or email Allesandro? I like the Chinese EL34's plus they are cheap.

[LeftyStrat]

Just need some expert recommendation/advice: Have an Alessandro Working Dog Doberman. Time to change tubes. Would like to put in something that might give it some more headroom/ more high end vox type chime. EL34's and 12ax7's. Any ideas are really appreciated

Lot's of possibilities. You can try something like a 5751, 12au7, 12ay7 to lower the gain for more headroom. SRV supposedly loved the 5751.

As far as EL34's, you might be able to sub kt88's. Another drop-in replacement is the 6CA7. I just picked up a couple of JJ 6CA7's and they are sort of like a cross between an EL34 and a 6L6, though they are probably more big-bottomed than chimey.

[renshen1957]

Just need some expert recommendation/advice: Have an Alessandro Working Dog Doberman. Time to change tubes. Would like to put in something that might give it some more headroom/ more high end vox type chime. EL34's and 12ax7's. Any ideas are really appreciated

Anyone with any ideas on this - or is this a bit simplistic for this forum? I don't know a lot about electronics (but I do know what sounds good and what doesn't) and any help with this is much appreciated

Hi,

I had a player who used to burn through NOS EL34 playing in a country band wanted more headroom and durable tube (Cathode bias). I gave him a pair of JJ KT77, and even the drummer noticed. He liked the tone, more headroom, easier to get country clean and still great for the rock numbers in the set. Supposedly JJ backward engineered their KT77 by sacrificing a NOS KT77 Genelex tube.

I haven't tried the Gold Lion KT77 for comparison.

KT77 supposed to have a top end that is more open and bright than an EL34.

Vox Chime can be thought of as dependent on high biased AB cathode bias without a negative feedback loop. The EL84 tube has been part of the equation, but nobody seem to complain when The Beatles switched from AC30s to AC50s (EL34) or AC100s (EL34 quad).

Nowhere Man was recorded with two Fender Strats a Blonde bassman, etc, plus some studio magic. However the live performance in Munich Germany 1966, Nowhere man is played on two Epiphone Casinos plugged into 7120 Voxes (solid state preamps based on the Thomas Organ US Vox Amps and four KT-88 tubes with two driver tubes. One EL84 and one ECL86 into Ultra Linear OT.

Both the Fender studio recording and the Munich Live recording sound chimmey

Best Regards,

Steve

[wingobingo]

Thanks for the information. I will probably order a pair of KT77's since it's about time to re-tube anyway. While I'm at it I will add a 12AT7 for possible use in v1 in addition to the compliment of 12ax7's.

[wingobingo]

Thanks for the information. I will probably order a pair of KT77's since it's about time to re-tube anyway. While I'm at it I will add a 12AT7 for possible use in v1 in addition to the compliment of 12ax7's.

[renshen1957]

Thanks for the information. I will probably order a pair of KT77's since it's about time to re-tube anyway. While I'm at it I will add a 12AT7 for possible use in v1 in addition to the compliment of 12ax7's.

Hi

5751, 12au7, 12ay7 mentioned by leftystrat are great tubes; I am more inclined to use a 12AT7 in the PI position. Gar Gillies of Garnet Amp fame used the 12au7 in the PI position.

I would like to hear your views (pro or con) on the pre-amp and power tubes and how these worked for you in the amp.

Best Regards,

Steve

[CW]

WingoBoingo,
You might want to rethink that KT77 buy.
I bought a pair of those when they first came out, the JJ...and they were pure crap. I sent them back. JJ had pin dia problems, and as of last week or so, that issue, along with QC, popped up again at another tube forum.
I'm using the new Genelex Gold Lion KT77 in a 50 watt plexi I built and in my Dynaco Stereo 80 power amp. They are very nice.
Now, if you want NOS EL34, you can contact me if you wish. I sell them.
And this post is not a bash against JJ, it's been well documented for the last 4-5 years about their QC.
If you have any questions as to my quality of NOS tubes, you can ask Taylor at Amplified Nation.
V/r
CW

[renshen1957]

WingoBoingo,
You might want to rethink that KT77 buy.
I bought a pair of those when they first came out, the JJ...and they were pure crap. I sent them back. JJ had pin dia problems, and as of last week or so, that issue, along with QC, popped up again at another tube forum.
I'm using the new Genelex Gold Lion KT77 in a 50 watt plexi I built and in my Dynaco Stereo 80 power amp. They are very nice.
Now, if you want NOS EL34, you can contact me if you wish. I sell them.
And this post is not a bash against JJ, it's been well documented for the last 4-5 years about their QC.
If you have any questions as to my quality of NOS tubes, you can ask Taylor at Amplified Nation.
V/r
CW

HI,

Vacuum tubes/valves have a history of issues even from the same batch, it is part and parcel the nature of the beast even back to the day when Vacuum tubes were the major business for electronics and quality was Sine quo Non.

The JJ I purchased from CEDIST didn't let a touring professional musician down (I would have heard about) and these were in a Sampson era Matchless Amp, great amps. However, things change all the time.

This being said does any company receive an A grade 100% for reliabilityor QC? Shuguang/Valve Art? (Not Shuguang Treasures) Groove Tube? Sovtek El84s in a Vox Amp? Chinese 6V6 tubes in a BF Deluxe Reverb? Fill in the Blank?

I hear stories about authorized sellers who burn in their tubes, etc. from the forums, some good some not so good.

I read a number of forums and the information is from brillant to fizzle on the subject. YMMV.

And some of their experiences with certain brands don't match mine. Then again different amps, different batches, etc.

However, NOS KT77 tubes cost more than most amps and aren't an option if available. 6CA7 tubes NOS aren't exactly cheap either.

How ever CW raises a point.

Since tubes (JJ or whoever) get reputations deserved or otherwise, purchase your tubes from a company that offers a guarantee or return policy. Pay the extra money.

Even tubes that have been pre-screened before purchased tested with a Hickcock (I own one) or an Eico tube tester (I own one), in essence double checked can still fail prematurely, even JAN tubes. Only exception I can think of is the Redbank tubes but there is no direct plug in replacement for an EL34.

If money was no object, check out the 6CA7 tubes from Shuguang Treasures. Buy from an authorized dealer with a warranty.

Best Regards,

Steve

[CW]

OK, so what exactly is your point here?
Offended because of a different experience than yours? Kinda sounds like it...I don't know. If your JJ worked well, good on you! Take a look at Jim McShanes site or the Tube Asylum and his recent notes on the QC problems he's had with recent bulk purchases, it ain't good. I'll say it again: those tubes I got sent were the biggest joke I've seen in a power tube...period! If I had any confidence in their production, I would have bought in bulk, but I simply can't. I read many of the forums also and through the years it's been the same story, with the exception of their EL84's. And now it seems those are in question. So I'm not alone here in questioning their QC.
Everyone knows even the best built tubes have flyers..it's not an exact science. You are correct on the Bendix RedBank stuff. I do know for a fact that the mil contract specs and testing procedures for JAN tubes ensured that the manu's "paid attention" to what they put out. There was way too much money involved to screw up a contract. Not like anything JJ has to contend with. And that does make a difference!
How do I know that? (Comes with the territory when you are one of the highest ranking uniformed warranted Contracting Officers.....a few years back....no brag..just fact). And yes, I have all the testers too..539c's, TV7s, B&K, custom built rig, blah, blah, blah. Are we done with dick measuring now?
I do warrant my tube sales, don't charge any extra for that or matching of any kind..never have. And my returns from 15 years of selling NOS tubes amounts to 2. I make it a point of providing all readings and not providing any hyped BS advice to make a sale....because there's just too many variables involved. But you've never bought anything from me before or know anything about me...so you wouldn't know this.
Authorized dealer? I suppose if one re-sells Russian and Chinese and JJ from Distributors they need to be "authorized"...which I very rarely do...98% is USA and West Euro (RFT exception) NOS.
I think you assumed I was inferring I had NOS Genelex KT77 for WB...I wish! Those are just too much $ these days and there are good alternatives...like the NOS EL34 RFT's, which I do have.
I make it a point to have the lowest prices around...because I have the stock and I can, and I'm not in this just for the money. I don't have to sell tubes for a living....maybe that's the difference between a lot of hyped bullshit vendors and their exorbitant prices and guys that don't have to revert to that. I don't need to be an "Authorized dealer" to give the best deals out there. Don't believe me? Ask someone who has done business with me in the past..like Victoria Amps, Tube Store, New Sensor....
After a lot of discussion with Taylor at Amplified Nation, he mentioned that this forum wasn't as anal as some of the others when it came to letting amp guys know there was another alternative place to get NOS tubes.

Bottom line is this: my point to WB was to be careful, research it and know there are alternatives.
Thanks for the history lesson.

[renshen1957]

OK, so what exactly is your point here?
Offended because of a different experience than yours? Kinda sounds like it...
Bottom line is this: my point to WB was to be careful, research it and know there are alternatives.
Thanks for the history lesson.

Hi CW,

Was I offended? Nope. I didn't intend to strike a nerve.

WB wanted an alternative to EL34 with more headroom.

Either a KT77 or 6CA7 would have a harder vacuum and generally considered to have better headroom.

The alternative would be what the American distributor of Marshall ordered in 1972, 6550s and did this even when EL34 tubes available and still good.

I know of QC problems for a lot of tubes. These come and go. Twenty years ago other than NOS EL34, there wasn't a EL34 reliable tube available from anywhere.

Three years ago Diezel amps had rumblings of switching to 6550s, Egnater bemoaned quality issues about El34 from any manufacturer.

Forums are great and at the same time amusing. I've read people's posts complaining about the reliability about JJ power tubes and then praising the same tube as issued by Groove Tube. Google Groove Tubes sucks and see how reliable their screening process is. No, it's that tubes can and will fail.

Back when the only reliable power tube was NOS USSR military 5881 equivalents that didn't have the high failure rates of most tubes. One builder related at that time he had one 5881 failure out of a 100 tubes. These were sold as Sovtek. He stopped using Russian EL34 at that time as he experienced 75% failure rates. This was in the 1990s.

Before the price of RFT tubes went up, I used to purchase these frequently. They are great sounding tubes.

Will these give more headroom for WB?

My point with the testers was I have purchased pre-screened (supposedly burned in) tubes, tested on my stable of testers (vintage and more recent design) and still experienced tube failures. One of the reasons I burn in new amps with music signals during the infant tone period or 40-60 hours. There is nothing worse than having an amp go to a new customer and then have any issue, but especially tubes.

My experience is that most people don't expend the time or effort to leave positive comments on a product that works if it meets their expectations. These same individuals will go out of their way to complain about the same product if it doesn't. Who ever said that for every complaint there is five other complaints that were never reported must not have worked in retail.

CW, I didn't know (or for that matter had little interest to inquire) whether you sell NOS tubes or not. If you do sell tubes, I meant no offense.

Ampgarage isn't the only place I post, I have on a number of forums debated (on the pro side) for NOS stock tubes and other parts. And yes, it is good to let people know they have options. Why I mentioned the KT77.

QC issue or not JJ did take the time to re-introduce the KT77, produced a 6V6 (to handle the higher plate voltage) a 7591 (which has an issue as to whether it has the same power wattage).

The Gold Lion version maybe an excellent tube or not, I haven't had time to investigate if its a real KT77. I do have an issue with Russian tubes. Do you remember the Sovtek 7591xyz? Not a real 7591 tube just a re-pinned 6L6 variant. Not the only power tube that was re-pinned 6L6 and sold as another tube.

EH has re=issued a 7591A that does meet spec (if placed into a too tall envelope), but people have been posting about Thermal runaway for these tubes for a long time in McIntosh 1500, which NOS 7591 handle without a sweat.

As to tube failures, as I have posted before, I have purchased NOS 6SH7 JAN (you would think the tubes would have been tested before being sent to be accepted by the US Govt), and the entire lot was shorted. This isn't a slight to CEDIST, these tubes were made in the US circa 1944-47, still in their box untouched/unopened and evidently untested back six decades into US tube heyday.

I mention this again as to the importance of purchasing NOS tubes from a party that knows what they are doing.

Yes, do research, but figure since the world militaries aren't purchasing tubes in bulk any more, Solid State effectively made tubes as we know them obsolete, the market for cheap tubes just isn't there, QC isn't going to be what it ever was 1/2 a century ago.

Hopefully not another history lesson.

Best Regards,

Steve

PS I don't own stock in JJ

[M Fowler]

I have had very little problems using JJ tubes and JJ is my standard go to tube choice.

I realize I don't go through the quantity level of say the good ole Dr Z does but I build plenty. Since the The Amp Garage Forum is a builders forum of mostly non business builders we report what works for us.

If tubes get that bad I'll join the other TAG forum Solid State Amps.

Mark

[KyleJ]

Just need some expert recommendation/advice: Have an Alessandro Working Dog Doberman. Time to change tubes. Would like to put in something that might give it some more headroom/ more high end vox type chime. EL34's and 12ax7's. Any ideas are really appreciated

I have a Laney TT50H 3-Channel.

I with JJ KT77s instead of EL34s.

Plane JJ 12AX7s for Ch1 and the PI.

I get a nice almost near VOXy sound from the clean

TAD 12AX7 in CH 2 for nice crunch

JJ 12AX7 Gold pins in CH 3 as they are very dark/crunchy/modern sounding.

Your mileage may very

[Big Jim]

What's in it now? I tried some JJ KT77's in a Marshall head a while back and I will admit I didn't love 'em. To my ear they sounded kind of brittle. If the power tubes aren't smoked, I would try a nice 5751 or something lower gain in the pre section first. My set of KT77's had no reliability issues, but they weren't in the amp long.
Jim