Amp repair bills

[Cliff Schecht]

So I know there are a few techs around TAG so this question is mostly for them. I started repairing mostly newer amps for a local luthier and have been working for around $80 an hour. The way I do the work is I specify (to myself really) how long the job should take and charge for that amount, whether the repair takes me that time, longer or shorter, plus I charge for any parts. So far the labor on each amp has been about 30 minutes, usually just an amp needing a fuse swapped or a wire repaired and I'll charge about $40 for the work.

The amp I just worked on, a Peavey Prowler (very well built for the most part) is the first amp I've worked on where I actually had to remove the PCB to do the repair (wonky input jack but was recoverable). This wasn't very hard though and the amp took me about 45 minutes from start to test and so I was thinking about $60 for the repair.

What do you guys and other techs charge for simple repairs like the ones I'm usually doing? I started doing this to make some spending cash but I feel bad charging someone $100 to open up their amp and change a fuse. Obviously the idea is that they are paying for my knowledge and expertise as well as my work but I haven't quite figured out what I should be charging yet. Any advice is much appreciated guys!

[billyz]

Cliff,
I think you are being more than fair with your pricing. Most guys have a minimum bench charge. I give them a basic amp tune up , clean tighten, test components, rebias tubes (or check). retension tube sockets, touch up solder joints on critical parts , ie input jacks and pots. etc. I can usually diagnose and fix any problem at that time as well, parts are extra and I do mark them up.

Most of my clients want it done fast and right. They tell me stories of waiting 4-6 weeks for repairs at many other shops.

[Normster]

I don't do amp repairs, but I think a 1 hour minimum is fair. If it turns out to be a fuse or tube, you can reduce the price, but if you have to open the amp...definately an hour. If you think about it, you have to go pick up the amp, diagnose it, order parts, install parts, test the amp, and then drop it off. Your bench time only represents a fraction of the total time you really put into the amp.

[DonMoose]

Cliff -

I run my little part-time operation the same way - partly because the other 3 part-time jobs I have amount to being on-call. I can never predict how long it will be before I even get my hands in the amp, or how long I'm gonna take rounding up parts. That's why my nominal hourly rate - the rate I use in estimating how long I'm going to be actively working on the thing - is $45.

If I could be certain I could get your amp back to you in less than 2 months, I might go up a bit.

[Cliff Schecht]

My turnaround time is more like a day or two because I have so many parts on hand from building. But that's just MY time, not including the time it takes for the luthier to bring in the amp, write it up, let me know the amp is there to work on and vice-versa when the amp is done. That's probably closer to a week or two, but I'd like to expedite the process a bit to get more work on and off my bench.

After googling around to see what others charge and their turnaround times, I'll probably stick with a $40 minimum bench fee and $80 an hour for work. I just feel bad if I'm working on a $250 amp and charging half the cost of the amp to open it up and swap out a fuse.

The shop owner does a great job working on vintage amps but he hates opening up modern PCB amps and working on them, plus he is not well versed in analog discrete stuff and has no problem admitting it. So being that I'm working on less valuable modern PCB amps, I'm trying to be fair to the amp owners and do reasonably priced work. I'm not going to make the most money taking peoples feelings into account, but I think that I will be able to build up a solid reputation by being as fair as possible with my work and get more customers this way, new and repeat.

[selloutrr]

I do a similar per amp price most of the time.

Locally we have several questionable techs so i made my name charging fair labor prices and actual parts costs along with returning any removed items from the amp to the client.

I charge $35 to diagnose an amp - taken out of the bill if the amp is repaired. The reason for the diagnosis charge is about half the time i can repair the amp during the diagnosis.
$60 an hr. most amps out the door for real repair work including parts is $100. cap jobs $150-$250 depending on amp and cap brand.
Bias $25-$45
Tube testing / matching on the amplitrex $4 per tube. price break on a multiple.
Restoration work is billed by hourly rate. plus parts.

easy things like fuses and faulty preamp tubes I seldom charge for. I find being nice for simple things brings the clients back for $$$$ repiars and word of mouth brings friends. IMHO i'd rather have a client for life then $40.

[Phil_S]

Cliff,
I'm a sole practitioner CPA, so maybe I can share some experience with hourly billing even though the work is different. I primarily have a consulting practice. I don't always charge the same exact rate to all clients, but the range is fairly narrow and it's sometimes negotiated down if there are enough hours in the job.

One thing I came to quickly is that I can only charge rates that I can live with. Get get comfortable with that. $40 min and $80/hr seem very reasonable to me. Don't charge under the standard market. You make your competitors look bad, and customers may question whether your lower rates suggest you are somehow less of a competent tech than the other guy.

Yes, it is OK to charge someone for 2 hours bench time ($160) for working on a $250 amp. You just need to point it out to the customer before you do it, and ask them, "maybe you just want to buy yourself a new one with a warranty?" Don't fret about losing work like this. It is bad business to rope a customer into paying for a repair that has an inappropriate value to the cost of the product.

I sometimes (this is always a judgment call and I don't like to do it) tell clients if they aren't satisfied with the work or the price, they should let me know I'll I'll work it out. No one has ever stiffed me and no one has ever asked me to reduce their bill. I think it is because the business is about building relationships. On occasion, I have reduced a bill without telling the client -- this is a pre-emptive strike. I have had a job go bad on me, where it had to be reworked. I do that at no additional fee -- if the client didn't get what they paid for, I'm still obligated to deliver. I had an ugly accounting database job that came out wrong and the rework on it was 40 hours. I just wasn't familiar enough with the data to see what happened. That really hurt, but my reputation remained intact.

I take subcontract work from two entities. I get less than my standard rate, as they mark it up. I know how much they charge -- they charge what I bill myself at for a direct job. I get 50-75% of standard. Again, if there is enough work, its worth it to me.

If I get something that turns out to be not much, I don't bill it. If all you do is change a fuse and it took you 15 minutes, think about whether you want to waive your minimum. That is the sort of act that might bring you more and more substantial business. You will never be able to measure it.

There is some work I take on fixed fee and some work I take on ah hourly fee not to exceed a limit.

Always tell the client the truth. If you make a mistake, say it plainly and tell them you'll make good. There are too many people out there who give the appearance that they want to shift responsibility. It looks bad and people can smell this when it happens. I believe you can't fool people. On occasion, I've even sucked up a problem that may not have been of my making on the thought that it is too easy to be blamed and how difficult it is to repair your reputation. Again, I thiink this is good business.

All of this is difficult because there are so many unknowns. Remember, a business is about just a few things: competence, service, relationships, communication, honesty, and value. Keep your eye on these things and you'll do well.

Phil

[Ian444]

Billyz mentioned checking the amp over, tighten up loose bits, check components, check bias, rework critical solder joints, retension tube sockets, all good stuff to make sure the amp doesn't come back in the near future. A full service. Many customers would be happy with that, rather than just fix the current fault.

Sellout mentions $35 to diagnose, taken off the repair bill if the repair goes ahead. That's good fair business and covers you a bit if the repair doesn't go ahead. Sometimes you might have to actually fix an amp to be sure that it is fixed, and that there's not some other extra issues as well. Then you quote it, but you already fixed it...if the customer does not go ahead with the quote, what do you do, put it back how it was or...

Phil_S says don't undercut the market - good advice. And all the customer relations points, gaining the trust of customers for repeat business and word of mouth. His last paragraph is gold.

And what to charge if it's a fuse or something trivial. For previous customers minimum charge or no charge can make them feel "looked after" which can be worth a lot of good will from them (leading to more repeat business as mentioned already), but for someone off the street you don't know, I would charge what other local repair techs charge or some preset "take a look at it" charge, e.g. sellout's $35 diagnostic charge at minimum plus cost of fuse. If the customer could have diagnosed the blown fuse and got the correct fast blo/slo blo replacement fuse, and the new fuse didn't blow, then they would not have brought it to you in the first place. Some customers don't like being charged for something simple, others are simply relieved and happy that there wasn't a major repair required costing megabucks. Human relations, dealing with customers, is a big part of it. In your case Cliff with the luthier bringing the amps around to you, you don't get to meet the customer, you might want to ask the luthier to ask the customer if they just wan't the present fault fixed only (for minimum cost), or if they want the amp fixed plus fully checked out.

[SteveG]

I always check earth continuity, mains wiring and that the correct fuses are fitted however trivial and un-connected the repair is (eg: loose input jack). The last thing you want is for an amp with a potentially dangerous fault to pass through your hands un-noticed because the problem wasn't where the reported fault was.

Steve

[daydreamer]

I had a weird rattle in an amp last year, put it in for repair, and though he couldn't replicate the fault (it was frequency dependent), he replaced both input jacks 'to make sure it wasn't that.' I guess he felt he needed to do something to justify the 90 bucks it 'cost'.

He does have a virtual monopoly, so repeat business isn't something he worries about. Though, I won't be going back as It really wasn't that hard to find the sound I was complaining about (he wouldn't actually meet with clients!!). Moral of story, like others have said, the little things ensure goodwill, especially if others are doing the running around for you , dropping the work off etc.

Sounds like you have already got all that figured out though

Good luck by the way. I would have no hestitation sending my amps your way; that pricing is very attractive, that is if there wasn't 13397 miles between us!.

Andy

[Structo]

Cliff I think you are being smart starting out by keeping your pricing very fair and affordable.

I think you mentioned you are still in school so this work is not your sole source of living income is it?

First thing to do is establish a reputation.
You do that by having a fast turn around, fair pricing and good repairs that don't come back.

Working on newer stuff will benefit you because a lot of older amp techs hate working on the new PCB stuff and they turn it away.
But lets be honest, much of that stuff is junk and is not meant to be repaired.

The hourly rate you quoted seems just a bit high but I don't know what the going rate is.
But as you mentioned you rarely charge a full hour.

Consider this, charge $60/ hr and charge an hour minimum.
That gives you time to troubleshoot if necessary and fix the problem.

Have fixed rates for new power tubes and bias setting.
Have a fee for going over an old amp to add a three prong and recap.

Once you establish yourself as a good and reliable tech and if there is a market for your type work in your area, you should get a lot of work.

Good luck!

[soma_hero]

I work in a shop building amps, and another guy does repairs on all sorts of things. We charge $60/hr with no bench fee. This is about $20 cheaper than the nearest competitor, and no bench fee. We make amps and do repairs also so our name is already out there because people are seeing our quality product and aren't skeptical that we do shoddy work because of our cheaper price. When I thank most customers for bringing stuff in they say "Yeah no problem, you guys do great work and I tell my friends about you...."

Don't know if you can charge that low, or much less than competitors but as has been stressed already, if you do solid work that doesn't come back you will get a good reputation and people will spread the word. No one wants to take their amp to a jerk who thinks he's owed business and isn't going to really put the effort into fixing their 5150 cause he doesn't want to mess with a PCB.

The way our repair tech does business is to take care of the customer first. Change a fuse... no charge. If it's simple like figuring out a bad tube and popping a new one in, charge the price of the tube (a bit marked up, but not stupidly). If it takes an hour to debug a problem, it probably is worth money in the labor fee, and most likely when you hazard a guess as to what it is, filter cap etc., the customer will want you to fix it anyway and won't have a problem paying you an hour labor and $20 for a new filter cap. We shoot um straight and let them be the judge. Up front if it's a weird problem on a big PCB amp, we let them know "hey this is gonna take an hour or two to figure out and we'll have to charge you the shop rate..." This is fine for us because we're still cheaper and better serving than other shops around so the customer feels taken care of that you're upfront about what's going to be involved.

We had someone come in with a laney practice amp the other day wanting a Mercury OT put in it. The tech straight up told him "Hey this isn't worth the part or the labor cost, just buy a better amp," and the customer decided to go ahead with it anyway. As long as you're honest and can let the customer pull the trigger, don't feel bad charging them your set rate.

Bottom line is do good work, be honest, and you will get business and your name will be held in high regard. That's really what anyone wants when they start a service business right?

[Super_Reverb]

The amp I just worked on, a Peavey Prowler (very well built for the most part) is the first amp I've worked on where I actually had to remove the PCB to do the repair (wonky input jack but was recoverable). This wasn't very hard though and the amp took me about 45 minutes from start to test and so I was thinking about $60 for the repair.

It sounds to me you are being fair. With the free market, if you significantly overprice, your business will be thin and if you underprice your service, you could get swamped.

Customers want you to be honest. If they have a $200 PCB amp that is all but lost, it IS good policy to level with them.

Plus, at some point, people have to learn that the money they may have saved with their initial purchase, could cost them in the long run with repairs - it's the same for any product that we buy.

BTW, I have learnt this lesson well> My Classic 30 has been nothing but problems: it's not even gigable due to mean time between failures - and problems are always related to PCB and construction issues. Now the PT is cooked. When it's up, it's got great tone. The chassis, cab, and speaker are good, but IMO, the circuitboard is ready for the boneyard...


cheers,

rob

[Cliff Schecht]

I've been very impressed with every Peavey amp I've opened. They're well thought out and constructed, especially for the price and the fact that they are made in the US. That sucks your amp is giving you problems, I've heard only good things about the Classic amps.

[fusionbear]

Lots of good advice here. I charge $40.00 an hour with an hour minimum. If it is only a fuse, I will only charge the for the fuse and that's it. If its diagnosing a Randall RM100 or such, I will be up front with them and explain that changing the fuses takes an hour to an hour and a half to get in there and change them all. (I won't just change one on those amps, they tend to weaken others and you'll see the amp again in a couple of weeks and have to take it apart all over again). Some amps are so cheap, I will be up front with them and warn them that it might not be worth the price. Some amps are a PITA. Such as changing the screen grid resistors in a 5150 or Marshall DSL, ugh! Anyway, telling the truth is always the best advice...