"Recording Out" hook-up, anyone?

[solderstain]

Hi, solder-sniffers!

Looking for a little advice on the hookup of a simple recording out control/jack. I plan to to put one on an amp I'm building for a customer. I'm just going to copy the simple configuration that Mesa uses on their amps - a resistor and a pot in series coming off the hot lead to the output jack.

Here's my question - anyone else played with this? Specifically I'm wondering if there's anything to be gained by tapping off the 16-ohm tap on the secondary of the OT (or one of the other taps, like the 8-ohm), instead of the output jack.

I know it's all the same signal, but tapping off one of the OT taps instead of the output jack results in a similar signal strength all the time, regardless of what position the impedance selector switch is set to.

Anyone have any real-world experience doing this? Does it make any real difference which tap it's hooked to... REALLY? I'm looking for experience, not just a guess or an opinion. I can fiddle with it myself, of course, but I really want to button the lid on the customer's amp and get it to him with minimal delay.

Thanks in advance.

[Andy Le Blanc]

get a passive DI and replace the XLR with a TRS, pad the input for the level.
most sound guys will see the thing coming and DI before the amp or mic it.

[solderstain]

Well, that's not what I asked...

While I personally prefer a DI box, and love my H&K Red Box Pro, the customer wants a recording out. He records at home (has a damn-nice studio too, for a 'hobby' studio ). He uses the recording out on a couple of his other amps and likes the approach, so I'll build it into this build, since he asked for it. He IS the customer, after all...

Since I haven't really heard any real hands-on comments either way, I'm just going to hook it up to the 8 ohm tap of the OT and see if he likes it. I can always change it, but I don't think it makes a real difference in the bigger picture.

[selloutrr]

why don't you do something trick and make a second ohm load tap for your recording out. really it's not going to make that much of an audible difference. esp in a project studio once you factor in comsumer quality audio cable and converters.

I've experimented with this a little bit between 4 and 8 ohms but it all comes down to how it's used and what it's being injected into. Class A vintage preamp verse digital crap from guitar center.

I'm fine with giving the customer what they want but if you wanted to blow his mind build him a sweet tube DI out with a speaker emulator. I'm guessing he does a lot of POD and digital amp modeling recording so getting the line out into the box makes his software easier to process.
You might also want to introduce him to a nice ribbon microphone and vintage preamp

[Andy Le Blanc]

I ment to say use a passive di transformer and a trs jack in stead of the usual
resistive BS on the FB loop, you can also "source" it pre or post.
you will be forced to DI the thing anyway, might as well start with a low imp.
right in the amp.

Not kidding about how a sound guy would rather grab the signal.
You'll mostly see them telling you instead of asking you. A diy amp or a mod
will get most guys grabbing a feed the way they want and they wont tell you.
with a pod you dont need the amp.

What do you do when a guitar player shows up at your door?....

pay him for the pizza.

[solderstain]

I'm guessing he does a lot of POD and digital amp modeling recording so getting the line out into the box makes his software easier to process.
You might also want to introduce him to a nice ribbon microphone and vintage preamp

Interesting conclusions you've jumped to... No POD - not even close. When I said he has a nice studio, I'm talking NICE. He has some killer mics already. He's a good friend and also one of my vintage guitar customers. He has a nice mix of modern and vintage amps - we have a lot of overlap in our respective amp collections - we both have '63 AC30s - his a little later with no TB added on, mine earlier with the TB add-on, we both have vintage Marshalls and mid-60s Black-face Fenders. He's got something I covet, though - an almost 100% unmolested original tweed Bassman . Point is, he's no 'gear rookie', nor a recording rookie. He uses a ribbon mic on some amps and the classic ol' SM57 on others... and at times... uses a recording out on more modern amps, if they have them. Since I'm building something for him, he asked me to add a recording out. I said 'sure thing'.

It's just my first time experimenting with it. I wish I had the room to add all kinds of cool, trick configurations, but this is a SMALL build, so the simple configuration wins the day. Maybe on some other build later I'll try something more sophisticated.

Thanks guys.

[vibratoking]

I'm tryin to learn something here, but I'm not sure I am decoding the vernacular properly.
I have some questions/comments if someone would be so kind to clarify things for me.

get a passive DI and replace the XLR with a TRS, pad the input for the level.

- build the DI into the amp, correct?

most sound guys will see the thing coming and DI before the amp or mic it.

- see the thing coming? I don't get it. DI before the amp? Why would a sound guy prefer the signal before the amp? I must be misunderstanding, cause that would be stupid.

you can also "source" it pre or post.

Pre or post output section, correct?

you will be forced to DI the thing anyway, might as well start with a low imp. right in the amp.

why would DI be forced? This is strongly influenced by the situation, so I don't understand why it is forced.

Not kidding about how a sound guy would rather grab the signal.
You'll mostly see them telling you instead of asking you. A diy amp or a mod will get most guys grabbing a feed the way they want and they wont tell you.

My translation - sound guys have very specific preferences regarding how they want to feed guitar signals to the house. If you give them a DI, via DIY amp or some other mod, then they will be satisfied and not feel the need to tell you how it should be done, correct?

Thanks guys

[vibratoking]

double post. don't know why that happens, but it does

[selloutrr]

The number one reason engineers reach for a DI box is that all the DI / line out's built into the amps are volume dependant. so if the artist is having a bad night and starts tweaking his knobs the whole mix can go to poop. with the DI you at least have a constant level. so you can focus on more important things like the vocal.

If you wanted to make a cool DI you would need to tap off and isolate it before the master volume. and give it a dedicated master volume. or if you just wanted the clean "pure" instrument tap off the input.

Sounds like you have some cool amps. I've personally found the line out in most hi gain amps to be very fizzy and lacking in dimension. Sadly not as useful as I would have hoped. Though I do use them alot in isolated rooms while having the band track together to lay down bass and drums. but I use the line 6 pod pro with a DI for reamping incase the take is stellar just as often. both ways are jus to give the listener some distortion while they track, but all the guitars are usually later retracked with microphones to fit the song after the bass and drums are edited. from time to time I have used the line out as a layer track.

[solderstain]

If you wanted to make a cool DI you would need to tap off and isolate it before the master volume. and give it a dedicated master volume. or if you just wanted the clean "pure" instrument tap off the input.

The problem with tapping it off before a MV (if there IS one...) is that it doesn't capture the the whole circuit... (and I never said it was a high-gain amp in the first place... it's not). Why have a wonderfully-tuned PI and the juiciest NOS output tubes and 'just-the-right' OT and then not capture it? I'm just going to start with a relatively simple setup of a 3-watt 6.8k resistor off of the 8 ohm tap of the OT secondary, and feed that to a 10k pot that feeds the jack. Same basic setup as stuff like various Mesa models, etc. We'll see if he likes it. Only one way to tell, and that's to give it a shot.

[ChrisM]

That 6K8, 10K pot setup is what I am going to try as well. I am using 1W for the 6K8, why 3W?

[selloutrr]

Not ttying come off the wrong way, but I'm not sure why you made this post in the first place? so far ever idea that has been present has been dismissed as wrong. you obviously have your mind made up so just build the amp and be done with it.

If you need a schematic or diagram for a line out PM me your email i'll send you one.

[selloutrr]

line out diagram

wires off of the pots leg 1 and wiper 2 are not connected.

[solderstain]

Not ttying come off the wrong way, but I'm not sure why you made this post in the first place? so far ever idea that has been present has been dismissed as wrong. you obviously have your mind made up so just build the amp and be done with it.

What way are you trying to come off? It almost sounds like you're insulted that your suggestions aren't being accepted. That's not what you intended, right? You seem to have lost or misinterpreted the purpose of the thread. I'm not obligated to change my path because someone tossed in a different idea or two. Relax!

Go back to the beginning of the thread - Yes, I already had my mind made up about the format and implementation. I don't need a schematic or a diagram, but it was nice of you to put one up anyway - someone else may need it.

My question was asking whether anyone had experience trying such an arrangement on different taps of the OT secondary. Simple. Nothing more. I didn't ask for implementation ideas. I didn't ask about alternate recording techniques. Since no one had anything to add on MY ORIGINAL QUESTION, I'll just stay on the path I was already on to begin with.

I appreciate that other people have other ideas (even yours), but... that wasn't the purpose of the thread. All the other suggestions weren't what I was asking about, and don't fit this situation. I'll save the suggestions and perhaps try them in some other build some time. But not THIS build.

Does that help you feel better?

[Cliff Schecht]

The 16 Ohm tap, being a physically larger winding, will have more inductance and therefore a lower cutoff frequency (I think). I'd scale the resistor divider accordingly and try that tap. FWIW the recording out that was on my old Silvertone was built with 1/2W carbon comps (don't remember the values though). I don't think you need high wattage resistors, anything that this would be driving should be a relatively high impedance and would draw negligible current.