More capacitor

[M Fowler]

The 5B6 didn't use a cap can, nor did the 5F6

Need to get past what they used for old amps. I used a can cap for my 5B6 but not on my 5F6.

[ampman1961]

Very nice work M Fowler.
I should clarify, that I apologize for sounding harsh about your post.
Conversations about anything to do with Weber gets my dander up and was certainly not your fault. I would like to point out, that I have never seen any concrete documentation concerning a 5b6 Bassman. There have been questions about that in discussions with many collectors. To my knowledge, only the 5d6, 5e6 and 5f6 variants are documented as being actual design designations. I have read through every published text that I posses and there is one reference regarding the two piece chassis Bassman with the title "5b6?"
There are several schematics titled 5b6 that I have, but were not named that way by Fender. If I am wrong, then please illuminate me. My reason is simple, historical documentation. Otherwise I guess it's fine to call it anything you want.
Sorry for railroading the thread.

[paulster]

This capacitor issue is not the fault of Weber because they buy parts and re-sell them. However, if they know about this problem and continue to sell that product, then they are at fault.

Spot on.

Weber are a reseller and you can bet that they won't have tested the products they are selling. Which small reseller would, to be honest, when they're selling new parts? They'll just deal with returns as they occur.

Now, how they deal with this problem having been alerted to it will be the telling thing because, as of right now, it <b>is</b> their responsibility, and those fake parts which are out there installed in amps are also their responsibility.

[Rich M]

You think THAT's dangerous? We are being silently attacked by counterfeit junk from Asia, mostly China. This stuff is infiltrating "legitimate" supply chains and being put in products we use in all aspect of our lives, IMO . I believe that when this whole mess is sorted out with Toyota, counterfeit junk working its way into the supply chain will be found to be the root of the cause. And, no, I don't normally wear my foil hat.

http://sound.westhost.com/counterfeit.htm

[Phil_S]

I'm still waiting to hear about Weber's response. I'm serious. The vendor is entitled to address the matter. The rest is posturing and speculation. Have you sent him the pictures? I think we all agree, what happened isn't acceptable, so let's see what the vendor is willing to do about it and how he reacts.

[FYL]

I have long been suspicious of the ELON capacitors

Elon doesn't seem to exist: the brand isn't listed anywhere, continental China or else. The only source seems to be Weber VST.

IMO they're the victims of a classic scam: you source parts from China, get some samples, test and qualify them, negotiate the price, place the order. First delivery, you test a random sample and everything is OK. Then...

Weber VST is a relatively small operation, I don't believe that they directly check everything at the "factory" or even mandate an independent local QC agent. Anyhing can happen then. Has happened judging by your post as well as numerous others on the Weber Amps n More forum: all Elon caps with dual plastic ends are fakes, they shouldn't be used - builders should recall all amps using them, as their responsibility is engaged. Period.

As in any situation there's some comic relief: UnionJack, a frequent AnM contributor, has posted a pic showing an Elon 16/450 axial containing an Elon 20/500 axial itself containing a generic 20/400 radial, Russian matryoshka doll-style.

http://www.weberorders.com/forum/index. ... 8#msg32918

[Dai H.]

I saw on a tv program segment fake "made in Japan" spark plugs being made in a tin shack in China. The Chinese authorities apparently do go after them but from what I gathered, part of the problem was they don't have enough resources. I've also seen info on a Japanese solder manf. warning how there existed Chinese fakes indistinguishable from real by sight alone. Also read of fake semiconductors as well.

re: the Weber alu electros, I doubt they would sell fake parts on purpose. From reading stuff from someone who worked there about Weber attenuators on FSB org, my sense was that they were perhaps trying too hard to cut costs by sourcing the cheapest avail. parts (which may not hold up and end up costing more in the end if they fail with returns, repair, customer dissatisfaction, negative effect on rep. etc. etc.).

Chinese stuff in general seems to be a mixed bag. Some of it is quality while other stuff very dubious. Wild (East) capitalism I guess.

[Structo]

TA Weber addressed it here

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 171#113171

Apparently the company Telelong is who makes the Elon or at least distributes them.

[FYL]

Apparently the company Telelong is who makes the Elon or at least distributes them.

Telelong is a small taiwanese manufacturer/distributor seemingly specialized in switches. No cap production AFAICT.

[Rick]

Rick,
This is surely unsettling. I am having a hard time believing this was purposeful on the Weber's part. Ted died last year and his son, T.A. has taken over. I woudln't hesitate to send that picture to him and ask him about it. You should not only ask for satisfaction, you should get it. I think you will, and I don't think it will be a problem. If you ask me, the Taiwanese dealer that sold them swindled Weber. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until the question has been asked and answered by the seller.
Phil

I'm not saying it was Weber's fault. I have notified them and they have confirmed and isolated the source. The folks there were as surprised and disgusted as anyone. Ted had no idea about this, he would not have sold this knowingly and neither will the current operators. I guess I should have kept the source to myself as I didn't want to create a firestorm for Weber. They have been good to me over the years. This product does not reflect their standards. They are going to destroy any remaining stock of these I understand.

My only purpose in posting these findings was to alert builders so these inferior parts don't end up in amps around the country or around the world for that matter. The real culprit is the ring of jokers who set up the manufacture of the counterfeit parts. I also notified Rubycon America division by email about the counterfeiting of their parts, but have not and don't expect to hear back from them. They are so big they probably don't find it worth their time to track down every nickel and dime counterfeiter of their parts, then again, who knows?

BTW, I found trouble with ELON caps years ago building 5E3 type amps. I couldn't get rid of the hum and motorboating. It was because of these inferior caps I believe. I always ended up changing out those caps and that would cure the problem. I never thought to chop one open and see what was actually in one until after I ran into the Rubycon fakes.

[C Moore]

I feel really stupid already, so go ahead and embarrass me some more. Obviously I am the only one who does not understand the economics of this....
Seems like it would cost more money and effort to buy, then insert a 330/200 cap inside of a 40/500 cap to the point where it looks legitimate, and nobody suspects a thing; than it would to just sell a "real" 40/500 cap. Or for that matter to sell the 330/200 caps that they must have bought wholesale, to their list of retailers.
So what don't I understand exactly..?
Thank You

[Rick]

I feel really stupid already, so go ahead and embarrass me some more. Obviously I am the only one who does not understand the economics of this....
Seems like it would cost more money and effort to buy, then insert a 330/200 cap inside of a 40/500 cap to the point where it looks legitimate, and nobody suspects a thing; than it would to just sell a "real" 40/500 cap. Or for that matter to sell the 330/200 caps that they must have bought wholesale, to their list of retailers.
So what don't I understand exactly..?
Thank You

I guess I understated the level of trickery, the label on the smaller inner cap is a fake too. Removing that label reveals another label that may or may not be the original label of the cap. By that time who cares? There is no legitimacy to the product by that point. The rating on the innermost cap was more in line something like 400V 47 uF. That inner cap is almost always a radial. I'm not sure if all axials are truly axial, but it is clear in all the fakes I have cut open that a small radial is relabelled, then put in a larger highly rated label can. The end caps have all been black plastic with loose fitting holes for the leads to come through. I suspect that the small inner cap varies with whatever the counterfeiter can source. They do not always look healthy, these caps often would not work properly right out of the box or bag because of the poor inner cap quality.

[Structo]

Why would they fake them? $$$

Bigger caps cost more.

I actually saw a video at YouTube of this Chinese guy making fake chicken eggs.
I kid you not.
The first part showed him making the yolks. Mind you these are made out of chemicals.
Once he was done with the yolk he put it in a large container fill with water I assume. There were a few already floating in it.
Then he took a mold for the shell and laid the yolk in that.
It was a little fuzzy how he made the shell but they said from the outside of the egg you could not tell it was a fake. Then once cracked open the only tell was that the whites were very thin like water.

People that have consumed these have reported memory loss and other ailments.
I think if I ate a fake egg I might suffer memory loss as well as in, why did I just eat a fake chicken egg!!!!

You would think that owning a bunch of chickens and just collecting the eggs would be so simple that why would any body make a counterfeit egg?

I dunno but they do......

Here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0US7JEfhsrA

[Rick]

Counterfeiting in communist countries has been a way of life for so long, it is just 2nd or 1st nature for entrepreneurs there. If you think about, in the USSR and PRC, they have been copying American goods, parts, and devices for many decades. They send spies to steal secrets, they reverse engineer products, and it has come to the point where they make just about everything as fake versions of someone else's ideas. Now they have come to making fake chicken eggs and fake capacitors. Would you want to buy food or medicine from these people? We've already seen that they even make toxic dog food and fake prescription medicine, so it's not speculation. 60 Minutes I think it was did a story on how they counterfeit prescription medicine a few years back. It's scary stuff.

[Phil_S]

The end caps have all been black plastic with loose fitting holes for the leads to come through. I suspect that the small inner cap varies with whatever the counterfeiter can source. They do not always look healthy, these caps often would not work properly...

Very good observation and thank you for sharing the tell tale sign of a fake. And thank you for clarifying what Weber is doing about it.