Orange Drop "polarity" ?

[Johnhenry]

I agree with you Tele, they do work, There has to be an inner and outer part of the cap, but when you look at the inner connection you go " HOW " ? I've read about cap's, know exactly how they work and why, but i was very supprised the first time i took one apart and i looked at both wire's stuck in the center of the roll, i had always thought that there was an inner roll and an outer roll with the insulator seperating the 2,Like looking at a Sandwich ! and for the life of me, I can't see this with my eye's with the polly coating off of the cap, i see 2 wire's stuck in the center of said roll, but for the cap to block DC there can be no physical connection between the 2 wire's, and then the AC signal to be inducted from one side to the other,
you can tell i'm no E/E ! so for a Dummy like me to understand what my eye's could not see meant further dissecting, if you cut the tinfoil roll from end to end with your exacto knife then you can actully see the way they make this all happen, it's not just a simple roll of tinfoil !
it does have section's with an insulator, and yes, there would be a shielded end !
IME, i really can't hear the difference when i was flipping them end for end but maybe some people can,
and it's easier to say the MoJo is in your ear's, i did notice on all the F*nder amp's i've worked on most cap's were pointed in 1 direction, normally with the marked end pointed away from the tube.
I hope my Rambling on has not caused more confusion, But, "INQUIRING
MINDS want to KNOW"
Thank's for the good info !
Johnhenry

[tele_player]

Good, we've established that there is a foil side. And others have demonstrated how to measure the noise.

I don't think that anybody says orienting them all correctly will produce a huge difference on a guitar amp, but on a noise-critical piece of hi-fi gear, every effort should be made to minimize noise. If it was easier to determine the foil side, I'd install them correctly even on a guitar amp.

However, i lieu of that, I like to place ODs with the printing all facing the same way, it makes it easier to check the values, though I do measure them all before inserting them in the board, so even that's just a useless perfectionist thing.

[Johnhenry]

Thank's Tele, i Agree with you,what i was trying to get was one of the EE type guy's to explain the Mechanic's of what a cap look's like dissected for the guy's like me that are not E/E's and the new guy's just starting on thier fisrt build, i had to dissect a cap a long time ago to see how it worked, we did'nt have the internet or P.C's back in my day,
so there were not many people around to ask these somewhat dumb sounding question's to.
Thank's for your answers,
Johnhenry

[tele_player]

I am an EE type.

I'm sure (though it's been years since I busted one open) that even though the leads look like they're all mashed together, each end is really mashed against only one of the foils. That's all there is to it, really.

[LeftyStrat]

However, i lieu of that, I like to place ODs with the printing all facing the same way, it makes it easier to check the values, though I do measure them all before inserting them in the board, so even that's just a useless perfectionist thing.

Not useless at all. I even try to orient resistors so the banding reads left-to-right when viewed from one end of the board. Anything to make verification or debugging easier.

Of course, I guess that makes it easier for gut shot cloners, but I haven't designed anything that anyone would want to clone, yet.

Not to knock gut shot cloners, I'm proudly one myself.

Lefty
"staring at Winterland gut shots"

[tele_player]

Not useless at all. I even try to orient resistors so the banding reads left-to-right when viewed from one end of the board. Anything to make verification or debugging easier.

I like the resistors lined up, too but sometimes I forget to do it.

[Structo]

One lead is connected to the dielectric and one is connected to the foil, right?
So what does it prove if you dissect an OD and the physical connections appear to be in the center of the jelly roll?

[mhuss]

Actually, (in a film-and-foil type cap) both leads are connected to foil with dielectric in between. The jelly roll metaphor is apt. However, when you're done rolling, one of the two pieces of foil is outermost, and it seems to me it would make at least a minor difference if the outermost wrap were grounded (AC or DC).

--mark

[Structo]

Ah, sorry I actually knew that.....
Don't know what I was thinking since I learned that like 35 years ago.

-ll- the symbol says it all.

[FUCHSAUDIO]

I think the only area that might matter, is when the caps are near one another, and the potential for leakage between the caps exists. I don't think the tone of the part is different, as far as polarity.

[Krinkle]

This seems to happen to me all of the time. I find out some seemingly great way to improve my tone or make my amp more robust against oscillations and I can't seem to make it happen. I went to Aiken's site, downloaded the article on cap polarity, went to my scope, performed the test, and there is no difference. The noise is exactly the same no matter which way I place the probe and ground. I am using Mallory 150's.

Has anybody ever performed a proper experiment to prove this is not a load of cr@p? I'm talking about some kind of controlled conditions. I'm not asking for anything in the realm of medical trials, BUT, has anybody ever done anything more than turning them around in their amp and claiming that their amp "opens up" or some other description that is very subjective? I mean, my amp sounds different to me from day to day, depending on the mood I'm in when I play.

Darrin is Frustrated.

[FUCHSAUDIO]

Has anybody ever performed a proper experiment to prove this is not a load of cr@p? I'm talking about some kind of controlled conditions. I'm not asking for anything in the realm of medical trials, BUT, has anybody ever done anything more than turning them around in their amp and claiming that their amp "opens up" or some other description that is very subjective? I mean, my amp sounds different to me from day to day, depending on the mood I'm in when I play.

Darrin is Frustrated.

That's an interesting question. The only time I ever made any impact on tone and/or stability was wrapping a couple of neighboring Orange Drop caps in self-adhesive copper foil and grounding the foil. It fixed a "whistle when dimed" problem in an amp I'd built. Switching cap directions made no difference in stability, noise, nor fixing the whistle btw. The copper foil did...

[Krinkle]

I'm glad to hear your response. I was starting to wonder if there was something wrong with my ears. I mean, I had an oscillation once but I never solved it by reversing a cap (although I was so desperate that I tried it).

Has anybody ever performed any testing to prove a difference in tone between, say, orange drops and 150's (or any others)? Or is it such an obvious thing that it is not up for debate (I must have taken out that portion of my hearing because I have a hard time hearing anything that I would call a significant change when I compared other caps)?

I guess you could compare polyester to polyester, and then polyester to ceramic or another.

I'm just trying to gather my own take on this as I go here. I'm building an Express and I am going to use the 150's as the originals are hard to get. I just have a hard time believing that these caps can cause anything but a very small percentage of tone change compared to an amp built with caps of the same material. A percentage that I feel can't be proven to correlate due to ambient conditions, tolerances, etc. Keep in mind that we're not talking about where the cap is postioned in the layout or the value selected. The only difference I see is either in materials or method of manufacture. Maybe there's something else I'm forgetting.

Just my 2 cents. If it is a factor I would really love to know how to reliably and repeatedly use it to my advantage.

Darrin

[Trace]

This seems to happen to me all of the time. I find out some seemingly great way to improve my tone or make my amp more robust against oscillations and I can't seem to make it happen. I went to Aiken's site, downloaded the article on cap polarity, went to my scope, performed the test, and there is no difference. The noise is exactly the same no matter which way I place the probe and ground. I am using Mallory 150's.

Perhaps there are other areas that are contributing to the noise (layout, etc) and while the cap polarity may make the amp a bit quieter, there may be other things superimposing themselves on top. Then again perhaps not (ha, ha)


Gotta love tube amps
Trace

[Johnhenry]

Again, Mr Fuch's answer is one of the best on said subject, I was told along time ago that the reason that Point to point was considered the best way to wire an amp, reason being, when you put everything on the same level as a board type amp you get an amp that may have problem's with bleeding and crosstalking of components, when you take a OD apart you will find that the one lead is attached to the inner foil and the other lead is attached to the outer foil, dialectric seperating the 2 foils, I would think grounding the outer foil could help keeping the trash out and the signal in, and i have switched them from end to end, but i just could'nt tell the Diff,
To each his own works for me.
Johnhenry