Hello Amp Garage! Southbay Ampworks introduction...

[Darkbluemurder]

I just joined here, but figured since I didn't see an "Introductions" section that I'd just post a thread here.

My feeling is that this thread belongs into the Garage Talk section, not the Technical Discussion.

[CathodeBiased]

The fact of the matter is that EVERY SINGLE TUBE CIRCUIT IN USE TODAY comes from the RCA/western electric Recieving tube guide. Had Ken Bran and Jim Marshall not "Cloned" a 5F6-A bassman there would be no need for your fake Celestions PERIOD.


You know why you can't patent basic tube circuits?? BECAUSE THEY ALL WERE PATENTED IN THE 1930's and 1940's!

Even the patents owned by Randall Smith of mesa Boogie are shaky at best, and could easily be disputed should the need arise, and they only seem to pertain to the switching matrix' not the tube circuits.

it's ALL borrowed circuitry.

Amen! Only newbies or the terminally clueless would believe that Trainwreck and Dumble circuits are completely new designs. These amps are tweaks on tweaks on circuits that can be found in RCA, Mullard, M-O Valve et. al application notes from the forties and fifties. Any designer that takes a stock Dumble or Trainwreck circuit and tweaks it again does indeed have new circuit!

[Scumback Speakers]

[MooreCowbelle]

So I am a bit confused by the logic here - By your own post:

2) Unless you have the amp being cloned right in front of you, you can't clone it 100%, because wiring is one thing. Wire lead dress, position and spacing of components on the board & chassis DO contribute to the tone. Dumble proved that to me 5 years ago in 20 minutes by changing out two caps with the same value caps (but different construction) in my amps, and moving the two star grounding points a total of 2.5 inches on one side, and 1.75 inches on the other. If you don't believe me, just listen to all of the 18 watt and JTM 45 "clones" compared to a real one.
3) You'll never clone the output tranny unless you send it out to be unwrapped, documented and then rebuilt. Mercury Magnetics proved this on to me, as well. I imagine there are very fine OT's that are "close", but not cloned.
4) As in anything electronic, it can age. OT's, caps, etc. go south, go bad, get soft sounding, so anyone who thinks they've cloned an amp has cloned "am amp" at a particular point in it's life, and it's anyone's guess as to whether it was a "Holy Grail" tone amp, or not. Only your ears can decide that.

You are basically saying "you can't really clone an amp". What happens when I build something that matches a Komet 60 or Constellation, or for that matter a Marshall 18 Watt (current production!)...by your own admission, I couldn't possibly get it right, since all I did was copy the circuit and didn't inject the special magical mojo that makes it a Komet/Connie/Marshall 18 vs a Trainwreck or an old RCA amp...

- We all know that these amps don't have anything new or patentable in them.
- Nobody here is going to pony up > 3K for a Trainwreck clone (Komet) or a production 18 when you can readily build something that gets VERY close for < 1K. So you are preaching to the wrong choir here.
- Only a small percentage of folks actually bother to get the amp parts & layout EXACT, down to the color of wire, type of flea clips, etc (Allyn, I'm looking at YOU so again, these aren't really clones. Just amps inspired by a certain manufacturer using non-patentable designs. Does it bother me that Hogy put so much effort into his amp, only to see the same design being used in other amps? A little, I guess. But, as Microsoft has shown us, a little marketing and arm-twisting goes a long ways when you don't have anything particularly ground breaking to sell.
- Only a small percentage WON'T tweak the values/positions/lead dress/tubes etc., so again, no clone, no mojo.
- None of the regulars here that I know has tried to pass off any of their DIY amps as actual "Komets" or even "Trainwrecks". Does anyone disagree with that?

[Normster]

Actually, I'm guilty of building and selling a Komet 60 clone...for less money than I had invested in parts.
I just wanted to hear what all the fuss was about and maybe learn a few new tricks. In the end, it wasn't my cup of tea so I sold it to another amp building hobbyist. Could I have passed it off as a REAL Komet? Nope. No logo. Did it sound like a real Komet? I'll never know for sure, but it did sound an aweful lot like the clips on the Komet site.

Personally, I have no axe to grind with anyone, but it does seem inappropriate to make ethical judgements about cloning on a forum dedicated to amp building. Yeah, I know, production, out of production, for hobby, for sale, blah, blah, blah... You know what? The hobbyist who copies a design from some pictures or schematics is NOT the threat. The real threat is someone who BUYS the amp with the intent to copy it and sell it for less money. It's the down-side of a competitive market...and it happens all the time. The consumer wins and the manufacturer takes it in the shorts. Lest we forget, IBM "clones" really brought computers within the budget of mere mortals. Oh crap, now I've opened the door for MicroSoft bashing.

[Scumback Speakers]

[MooreCowbelle]

...constitutes copyright infringement...

Nope, sorry. No copyright. The only thing that the Komet can claim is a trademark/service mark infringement. And that is true. But again, nobody here (or at least, in their right mind) is selling amps marked as "Komet" with the (I hope trademarked) Komet moniker, logo, and unique look. That I agree with you 100%. Heck, most of these guys are scared of the mojo karma that would hit them if they put "Trainwreck" on their personal amps...I know I am...

[Funkalicousgroove]

Look scumback,

I don't, and have never built a Komet anything, I build Dumbles, Wrecks. Classic MArshalls, And fenders. But I am 100% for anyone who wants to build themself a Komet, or whatever being able to do so. I don't give two shits about your ripped off Celestions regardless of how much time and money you spent ripping them off.

The members of this forum are here for a free exchange of information, and the only righteousness police we need here are the moderators.

I don't know you, and I don't need to have any discussion with you about this, I have no axe to grind with you other than this:

if you plan to pitch a bitch everytime someone talks about cloning a current production amp this quite simply is not a place for you.

You made your feelings known about this community and what it's members do on another forum, then you come and hop on the bandwagon over here?

Sheesh, give me a break!

[Bob-I]

You know, we come here to discuss amps. If you can't get along with us after 5 posts maybe you shouldn't come back.

Sure sometimes we have some good natured chop busting, but not these attacks. There's simply no need.

[Normster]

You know, we come here to discuss amps. If you can't get along with us after 5 posts maybe you shouldn't come back.

Sure sometimes we have some good natured chop busting, but not these attacks. There's simply no need.

WTF Bob? Why are you wasting your time here when you're supposed to be jammin' at the ampfest?

[fzfwyv]

At that time, the Celestion Heritage line had yet to be announced, and it seemed I beat them to market, and to the correct tone I might add, by a few months.

To bag on Ted Weber, or me, for putting out a superior recreation of a discontinued product is kind of pointless, don't you think?

If you were a unique enough builder to build something different enough to bring to market that someone wanted, you would like to reap the rewards of your hard work by a few sales to pay for the R&D...and if you tell me you wouldn't, you're the hypocrite, and a liar, too, not me.

I have no respect for someone cloning a current production amp, riding on the coat tails of their work, and making a profit. See, that's the difference here. I'm recreating a tone from a bygone era, that's no longer available. You're recreating a current era tone, and either telling folks yours is "the same" or "as good" or "the same but cheaper!" and ripping off the works of others.

So, yeah, you're a thief and a cheap bastid...which I'm not. So, I've made my argument, and supported it with good reasons for doing it.

Jim,

Just taking a few quotes from your post, I think you've contradicted yourself a few times.

Have you stopped selling the Scumback speakers that are just like the Celestion Heritage speakers? Does it make it OK if they stopped making them for a time then re-introduced the speaker line? Just trying to understand. And you're argument that you tweaked the cones or whatever won't work. If I build a Komet clone and change 1 resistor, then it's not a klone right? That should be perfectly OK. Jim, you're contradicting yourself and starting to look really silly.

I guess what I'm saying is we have a pretty decent group over here and you are certainly free to do what you want, but your presence here doesn't add anything positive to the group. In fact, see what your thread has already started. You might want to just delete your post and not hang out here.


*edit* and what about your Keebler LP? Apparently it's OK to own a clone...you just can't make 'em. *edit done*

-Rich

[Bob-I]

WTF Bob? Why are you wasting your time here when you're supposed to be jammin' at the ampfest?

I just got home. I got to compare my Peavey transplant directly with Scott Learner plugged into a real Dumble. It held it's own, even at 1/2 the power, some folks said they couldn't tell who was playing what. I'm sure in a quiet room you could tell, but in a jam.......

I got to try the Dumble. Must more bottom than I expected and monster loud with a pair of EVM 12L's.

Wait till Scott hears that I used the Blue Xicon caps and not the maroon one's. He'll s**t.

Oh... and the Glassworks is HANDS DOWN, the best Dumble clone there. Andy Fuchs brought several amps and Scott brought his Fuchs.

I hope my ears will stop ringing by next month.

[Scumback Speakers]

[Scumback Speakers]

[fzfwyv]

Dude, take a hint. Go away.