I'm curious to see how far you have to change an amp before it's no longer a trade mark or patented piece of work. I reason i'm asking is if you think about it. Fender started as an RCA tube amp project out of a recieving manual. and marshalls are basically fenders with a couple mod's. Mesa Boogie started as a fender....
just wondering what others are thinking...
How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
My Daughter Build Stone Henge
Re: How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
You cant trademark / patent an electronics circuit unless it is something that is a completely new idea and never done before. Changing values or circuits really doesnt count. This is why the Silicone patent is so popular.selloutrr wrote:I'm curious to see how far you have to change an amp before it's no longer a trade mark or patented piece of work. I reason i'm asking is if you think about it. Fender started as an RCA tube amp project out of a recieving manual. and marshalls are basically fenders with a couple mod's. Mesa Boogie started as a fender....
just wondering what others are thinking...
I have heard that story about Fender and even in extensive research I have never seen a Fender circuit in an RCA manual. But basically RCA put those there as a suggested usage with no licensing fees attached. They are free domain.
It just doesnt make sense to copy an amp and put it into production on an ethical point of view if you believe in Karma. Now a general look that is unique or a Name (Overdrive Special) could enforced just by a common law trademark. For instance you have been using Overdrive Special and were the first, you have 20 years of using that name. You could take that to court and win. I doubt you would get damages though unless it was a Federal trademark. Boogie knows about patents and they borrowed HEAVILY from the SLO100 for the rectifrier. In cases like this it is usually who has the most money.
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Luthierwnc
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Re: How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
Fender only had patents on their tremolo circuits before the Silverface and SS era.
Patents won't do much for you in this field. Even if you did have something completely original, most makers couldn't afford to mount a successful patent defense -- much less collect anything from the offender. The only way to come out ahead is if a big outfit steals or inadvertently uses the design and then settles to shut you up.
The key to a successful amp line is marketing (usually getting someone famous to play it publicly) and being able to get out enough units for less than they cost to make. That spread has to include the cost of shows, warrantee work, wholesale vs retail if you are using music stores, walking away from unsuccessful designs and buying all those parts in bulk.
To make matters worse, you are doing something people will do for love. Nobody's childhood ambition is to run a chemical toilet business so the people who do usually make money. Trustafarians, hippies, hobbyists and people who don't know thay can't pull it off will bleed enough amps into the system at cost or below to undercut you unless you have really (and I mean really) strong brand identification. Even those can be fickle.
Always glad to bring a little sunshine, Skip
Patents won't do much for you in this field. Even if you did have something completely original, most makers couldn't afford to mount a successful patent defense -- much less collect anything from the offender. The only way to come out ahead is if a big outfit steals or inadvertently uses the design and then settles to shut you up.
The key to a successful amp line is marketing (usually getting someone famous to play it publicly) and being able to get out enough units for less than they cost to make. That spread has to include the cost of shows, warrantee work, wholesale vs retail if you are using music stores, walking away from unsuccessful designs and buying all those parts in bulk.
To make matters worse, you are doing something people will do for love. Nobody's childhood ambition is to run a chemical toilet business so the people who do usually make money. Trustafarians, hippies, hobbyists and people who don't know thay can't pull it off will bleed enough amps into the system at cost or below to undercut you unless you have really (and I mean really) strong brand identification. Even those can be fickle.
Always glad to bring a little sunshine, Skip
Re: How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
While I'm not real sure about this, I suspect that the US Patent Office doesn't do much due diligence on patent requests. They probably do some background work, but they can't possibly have the expertise to cover all the scientific and technological advances that people file claims for. If you submit the paper work, they will probably issue the patent.
The fun starts when you gain commercial success. Every competitor will buy "one of yours" and obtain any patent claims you might have filed. As soon as they see a patent infringement, Dewey Cheatham & Howe will be sending you a letter on behalf of the client whose property you allegedly appropriated without securing the appropriate rights and paying the required fees.
Anyone can get a patent. It doesn't mean anything until you assert your rights in the marketplace and prevail over those who are out there waiting for you.
Good luck.
The fun starts when you gain commercial success. Every competitor will buy "one of yours" and obtain any patent claims you might have filed. As soon as they see a patent infringement, Dewey Cheatham & Howe will be sending you a letter on behalf of the client whose property you allegedly appropriated without securing the appropriate rights and paying the required fees.
Anyone can get a patent. It doesn't mean anything until you assert your rights in the marketplace and prevail over those who are out there waiting for you.
Good luck.
Re: How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
I've seen ckts close to the Fender Tweeds in the Western-Electric manual. I think the one I was looking at was early 40's, '42-43. These included calculations but not exact ckts. Lots of folklore about this stuff.drz400 wrote:I have heard that story about Fender and even in extensive research I have never seen a Fender circuit in an RCA manual. But basically RCA put those there as a suggested usage with no licensing fees attached. They are free domain.
Re: How mod'd do you have to do before it's a new patent?
The Dave Funk book says some of the early 50s Fender circuits were licensed from AT&T and Western Electric, but the patents all lapsed. Never been able to find any Fender circuits in RCA manuals either...
patents
If you throw out all the BS claims and patents on things like rectifier switching, MV switching, dual recs, resonance, etc. Come on, really, how do these guys get patents on putting something as simple as a switch into a circuit, and most if not all of them ARE indeed WE circuits, just redrawn, and a catchy name applied ?
With a few exceptions, there hasn't been anything new in tube amps in quite some time. Think about it. And, the best of the new stuff, is a clone of the old stuff.
There are a lot of recipes though. Would one more drop of retsin change it for the better or worse?
There must be a hundred direct Bassman and Plexi clones out there right now, all claiming to be the best since the slicing of bread.
How do you patent your amp? You don't, it's nothing new. You trademark your name and logo. It's all you can do, and all most do.
Leo only had a handful of patents, and it didn't stop him. Peavey on the other hand has hundreds, and it hasn't been their savior either.
With a few exceptions, there hasn't been anything new in tube amps in quite some time. Think about it. And, the best of the new stuff, is a clone of the old stuff.
There are a lot of recipes though. Would one more drop of retsin change it for the better or worse?
There must be a hundred direct Bassman and Plexi clones out there right now, all claiming to be the best since the slicing of bread.
How do you patent your amp? You don't, it's nothing new. You trademark your name and logo. It's all you can do, and all most do.
Leo only had a handful of patents, and it didn't stop him. Peavey on the other hand has hundreds, and it hasn't been their savior either.
T. Jauernig