I'm at the stage where I am starting to sell amps, so have been organizing safety approvals. Legally, anything electrical in Australia, if it doesn't have the safety tick and something goes horribly bad you can be liable for damages or even worse up on manslaughter charges I was told today.
But have noticed not many builders out there have them, also I see a lot of people assembling kits and selling them.
My question is, are the laws different everywhere or is it a matter of fine print, as in "buying this amp you use it at your own risk and we're are not responsible".
Thanks,
Aaron
Safety Compliance
Moderators: pompeiisneaks, Colossal
Re: Safety Compliance
Laws vary considerably from place to place. In the US, we have 50 states and a few territories. While there is Federal law that prevails everywhere, it can vary from state to state. If your amp kills someone, you are likely to be sued and maybe prosecuted under state law rather than Federal law.
You are in Australia. I am going to presume, just like in the US, your fundamental body of common law (often unwritten, not legislated) is draw from the English common law, meaning we share the basic definitions of liability, negligence, and malfeasance. On that basis, I believe your commercial amp making activity demands that you clearly understand the implications of the laws of your country and any state/province/territory and local laws. The only way to be sure about all of it is to consult an attorney. Unfortunately, this is a necessary cost of doing business. I believe you will find little more than casual advice here that you should not rely on in making decisions about what you are doing.
People get sued regularly and sometimes prosecuted for things out of their control. There is a classic case in the US of some... {choose your favorite offensive word for someone who lacks basic intelligence) ... someone ... who successfully sued McDonalds because she spilled a cup of hot coffee on herself and got burnt. I don't believe any amount of fine print is worth the paper its written on. You might do a little better if you obtain a signed document from the buyer, but that becomes worthless as soon as the original buy sells it to someone else. Besides, it won't exactly encourage confidence in your product.
I wouldn't assume that obtaining your country's equivalent of UL or CE is all that's needed to protect yourself.
You are in Australia. I am going to presume, just like in the US, your fundamental body of common law (often unwritten, not legislated) is draw from the English common law, meaning we share the basic definitions of liability, negligence, and malfeasance. On that basis, I believe your commercial amp making activity demands that you clearly understand the implications of the laws of your country and any state/province/territory and local laws. The only way to be sure about all of it is to consult an attorney. Unfortunately, this is a necessary cost of doing business. I believe you will find little more than casual advice here that you should not rely on in making decisions about what you are doing.
People get sued regularly and sometimes prosecuted for things out of their control. There is a classic case in the US of some... {choose your favorite offensive word for someone who lacks basic intelligence) ... someone ... who successfully sued McDonalds because she spilled a cup of hot coffee on herself and got burnt. I don't believe any amount of fine print is worth the paper its written on. You might do a little better if you obtain a signed document from the buyer, but that becomes worthless as soon as the original buy sells it to someone else. Besides, it won't exactly encourage confidence in your product.
I wouldn't assume that obtaining your country's equivalent of UL or CE is all that's needed to protect yourself.
Re: Safety Compliance
Start researching CE listing and UL listing. CE is the European standard and UL listing is specific to the US. Find out if Australia recognizes the CE standard. I believe the UL listing in the US is optional, but would definitely provided a bit of legal cover should an accident happen. To export to Europe I believe CE is required.
The other consideration is cost. I asked a couple other builders about the process and the general consensus was that it will cost ~ $10,000 US and 3 amplifier (the will be destroyed during test).
Take this with a grain of salt... I have not yet sought CE or UL listing, and my information is 3rd hand.
The other consideration is cost. I asked a couple other builders about the process and the general consensus was that it will cost ~ $10,000 US and 3 amplifier (the will be destroyed during test).
Take this with a grain of salt... I have not yet sought CE or UL listing, and my information is 3rd hand.
Ryan Brown
Brown Amplification LLC
Brown Amplification LLC
Re: Safety Compliance
You are right that passing your product through an officially recognized testing Lab and getting the approval certificate is necessary.
On the other side, it is *expensive* , here in Argentina IEC compliance (prices should be similar there, since it's an International certificate) is some U$1000 to get "product certification" meaning that one product (think Twin Reverb) , you can change *nothing* on further ones or you null the certificate , or "Class certification" , which costs U$3000 but covers all "same class" amps (think Twin/Dual Showman/any 100W tube amp same family) , and to make it worse,it's good for *one* year.
Yes, it can be renewed on the same product for less $$$$ but the point is it's out of reach for most homebuilders.
On the contrary, it's penanuts for any large manufacturer (think Fender/Marshall./Peavey,etc.) so most homebuilders just skip it.
Anyway, your best "insurance" is to be very careful and triple check the mains side of your builds.
Having an internal "fool proof" fuse is good, say external fuse is 2A , then you add an internal, not visible from ouside 3A one, even better if it's pigtail type and soldered, so when user replaces external dead 2A one with a nail/rolled up aluminum paper/live .22 cartridge/etc. the internal one is there to avoid a house fire.
Also adding thermal cutouts , again invisible , embedded in the power transformer windings, help protect *you* from users.
[img
1071]http://s3.electronics-cooling.com/wp-co ... /selco.jpg[/img]
On the other side, it is *expensive* , here in Argentina IEC compliance (prices should be similar there, since it's an International certificate) is some U$1000 to get "product certification" meaning that one product (think Twin Reverb) , you can change *nothing* on further ones or you null the certificate , or "Class certification" , which costs U$3000 but covers all "same class" amps (think Twin/Dual Showman/any 100W tube amp same family) , and to make it worse,it's good for *one* year.
Yes, it can be renewed on the same product for less $$$$ but the point is it's out of reach for most homebuilders.
On the contrary, it's penanuts for any large manufacturer (think Fender/Marshall./Peavey,etc.) so most homebuilders just skip it.
Anyway, your best "insurance" is to be very careful and triple check the mains side of your builds.
Having an internal "fool proof" fuse is good, say external fuse is 2A , then you add an internal, not visible from ouside 3A one, even better if it's pigtail type and soldered, so when user replaces external dead 2A one with a nail/rolled up aluminum paper/live .22 cartridge/etc. the internal one is there to avoid a house fire.
Also adding thermal cutouts , again invisible , embedded in the power transformer windings, help protect *you* from users.
[img
1071]http://s3.electronics-cooling.com/wp-co ... /selco.jpg[/img]Design/Make/Service Musical stuff in Buenos Aires, Argentina, since 1969
Re: Safety Compliance
*Fixed it for you!*Legally, anything electrical in Australia, even if it does have the safety tick and something goes horribly bad you will most likely be liable for damages or even worse up on manslaughter charges.
Like a couple of the others, I'm also going to say not to trust what someone says on the internet. But I'm going to follow that up with some information for you. Australia has a very well established system of it's own and so UL or CE approval isn't applicable for items made here. Imports also need approval if they are on the prescribed list and often a sticker is applied with the local approval number, and approval is easier with the paperwork already provided by the UL or CE approval.
There is no legal requirement in Australia to get an amp for commercial sale tested and approved as it is not an equipment type that is on the prescribed list. For non-prescribed equipment you can still get approval on a voluntary basis, but it is not a requirement.
From now on I am going to reference applicable info for Victoria through the ESV. You need to cross check for yourself vs. all relevant information available on the Queensland regulator website (which I believe is the Electrical Safety Office sitting under Work Safe Queensland).
In typical contrary nature the Electricity Professionals section of the ESV website talks about prescribed and non-prescribed classes of equipment, where in the Consumer section it says to quote "All electrical appliances and equipment must be approved prior to being made available for public use." which isn't what the approval information says.
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Electricity-P ... appliances
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/For-Consumers ... -equipment
The Application Guidelines are where you actually find out how it all works.
Certificates of Approval are issued for prescribed equipment. Certificates of Compliance are issued for non-prescribed equipment (including amps).
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/Ele ... pdated.pdf
Current fee structure says "application for new certificate of approval for electrical appliances (other than an electrical luminaire)" is currently $693.60.
http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/ele ... 6_Fees.pdf
As per the Electrical Equipment and Appliances page linked above, all electrical equipment whether approved or not, must meet the requirements of the Electrical Safety (Equipment) Regulations and the Electricity Safety Act. It is pretty much expected that if you meet these requirements your equipment is basically safe to use. These documents are very general and imply a lot underneath them. If it was to cause an incident, then it wasn't safe, mustn't have met the requirements fully and you will be in court. Approval won't protect you and is not much more than assurance from the regulator that you most probably have done the right thing, and assurance for the consumer buying your amp that you most probably have done the right thing. Disclaimer text or agreement also means absolutely nothing. If someone's house burns down or they (or their pets) get a shock, or are electrocuted then you're in a world of shit no matter what approvals and paperwork you have to back you up. Regulator approval testing is basic and to the regs requirements. "Proper" testing to the relevant Australian Standard is much more onerous and will cost you a couple of thousand or more through a test laboratory. The guidelines have a table listing the relevant standard for all prescribed equipment (not amps), but there is still an Australian Standard for safety testing of audio equipment (the general "AS/NZS 3820 Essential safety requirements for electrical equipment" which then lists "AS/NZS 60065 Audio, video and similar electronic apparatus - Safety requirements" based on the IEC of the same number likely apply and there may be others) and you'd be remiss if you weren't intimately familiar with them. Regulator approval doesn't test much of what's in the AS and that is where you will come unstuck if something happened. Of course even if you do test to the AS a lawyer will prove it was not satisfactory if something happens because at the end of the day something happened so it mustn't have been. Don't forget equipment can also be used as a scapegoat for insurance companies in a fire scenario.
Hope this helps on what can at first be quite a confusing topic. Lots to consider. You need to assess and be comfortable with the risk. I don't want to scare you and there are plenty in this and other equipment catagories who go through this decision process and proceed (quite legally) without approval into a successful business whether full time or just on the side. But your house and everything you own is on the line here, just like any other situation where you have potential liability. You need to know how it all works and make an educated decision being comfortable with the likelihood (which is very low if you build it right) and consequence (a lot if it goes wrong). Manufacturers make and are comfortable with this type of decision every day. Don't forget you need to read all the equivalent information from the Queensland regulator. Also don't forget there are EMC regulations as well which compliance needs to be demonstrated but I'm assuming (don't really know - not as familiar with this side of things) that amps would fall in the low risk device category that doesn't need labelling. From the bottom link, yes they are low risk as long as you don't include a switch mode power supply (like for solid state effects, reverb or whatever). Compliance is not optional, only labelling is (for low risk equipment).
http://acma.gov.au/Industry/Suppliers/E ... patibility
http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Supplie ... fact-sheet
Re: Safety Compliance
Everyone who gets an amp from me gets the same story. "This may look like an amplifier but it is a piece of art, it is not intended to be plugged into an electrical outlet...that would void the warranty".
Re: Safety Compliance
Thanks Kato, spoke to some aus.gov person, and they were actually helpful. They pretty much said the same thing.
On a side note, I showed one of my builds to a warranty repair guy and he said, 25 years in the business and it's one of the best builds he's seen. Needles to say I was chuffed
On a side note, I showed one of my builds to a warranty repair guy and he said, 25 years in the business and it's one of the best builds he's seen. Needles to say I was chuffed
Re: Safety Compliance
Not quite the same credentials as the warranty guy, but I've seen your builds as well - they do look great 
Niki
Niki
Re: Safety Compliance
I hope you and other forum members will give me a wide berth for being brutally honest. Saying this to someone, where the obvious intention is to use it an an appliance you plug in (you provided a means to plug it in) means that your sorry butt will get sued when something goes wrong, just like everyone else. Substance will trump form nearly every time in legal matters.loctal wrote:Everyone who gets an amp from me gets the same story. "This may look like an amplifier but it is a piece of art, it is not intended to be plugged into an electrical outlet...that would void the warranty".
It is very likely, in any system of legal jurisprudence, they will apply the rule, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck and not a piece of artwork.
Re: Safety Compliance
Giant, economy-size can of worms. [All of the following is my personal, dim, perhaps erroneous or partial understanding of the issues.]
I designed power supplies for A Major Computer Company in my past life, so my stuff had to meet the safety requirements - as they were then. Safety standards are continuously updated.
Safety standards are one of those things that are enacted "for the public good" that wind up having all kinds of unintended consequences. It's a Good Thing that you don't sell electrical stuff that kills people or starts fires. Governments try to achieve that Good Thing by requiring certification.
I consider it remarkable that the USA has resisted requiring national certification; in the USA it's enforced by the lawsuit lottery.
There is no requirement for certification in the USA (at a national level) at all. States, counties, and cities can and do enact their own laws on this. In fact, there is no certifying body. Underwriter's Laboratory is a private creation of insurance companies intended to help the companies decide whether they will or will not insure.
There is a side effect to even that. If you sell something that electrocutes someone, you're almost certain to be sued for more money than you have, even if you're wealthy. If you didn't bother to have the equipment checked by UL, that will be pointed out to the jury as your having willfully and recklessly avoided trying to make your product safe. UL certification will not prevent your being sued, but it will help provide a defense that you tried, doing all a Reasonable Person could.
That's just the USA. I'm not a expert on Australia, although I think you're required to get certification. I don't know if not getting certification is a criminal or only civil offense. It used to be criminal in certain countries in Europe years ago.
Safety standards grow like coral reefs; each year, a new layer of stuff is overlaid, based on previous standards and any new disasters that have happened. This leads to a maze of requirements that sound very strange if you're new to this.
For instance, there is a general idea that failures will happen, so no one failure should cause a shock hazard. Wires break sometimes, so there are multiple requirements intended to prevent any one wire breaking from causing a shock hazard. That's why all user-touchable metal has to be grounded to safety ground or protected by two complete layers of insulation from hazardous voltages.
The grounded chassis is one way to ensure this. A broken wire that touches the chassis will itself be grounded, and no shock hazard will result. But this is only true if the chassis is connected to safety ground and the ground path can sustain a current that will ensure blowing a fuse. So there are requirements that the chassis ground connection sustain 25A (last time I looked) of current at a voltage under [some small voltage]. And there are special requirements on how that grounding happens. Likewise, a grounded chassis doesn't help if you can reach in the back and touch live wires. So there are requirements on how hard it must be to touch live wires through any opening in the outer enclosure.
This kind of thing goes on for hundreds of pages. When I did the Workhorse amps, I bought a copy of the most current IEC standard and three different textbooks on interpreting that, and dug through it for some months in designing the wiring. Then I took it to a certification lab. They found four things that had to be corrected. They missed the fact that the main AC switch must be prevented from rotating in its mounting hole. And they're the certification professionals.
The bottom line is that depending on where you live (1) if you sell electrical equipment without getting it certified, you're at some legal risk (2) that risk may be civil and/or criminal and (3) meeting safety standards is not a game for amateurs. It's legally risky.
I apologize for the honesty too. It's a little depressing.
I designed power supplies for A Major Computer Company in my past life, so my stuff had to meet the safety requirements - as they were then. Safety standards are continuously updated.
Safety standards are one of those things that are enacted "for the public good" that wind up having all kinds of unintended consequences. It's a Good Thing that you don't sell electrical stuff that kills people or starts fires. Governments try to achieve that Good Thing by requiring certification.
I consider it remarkable that the USA has resisted requiring national certification; in the USA it's enforced by the lawsuit lottery.
There is no requirement for certification in the USA (at a national level) at all. States, counties, and cities can and do enact their own laws on this. In fact, there is no certifying body. Underwriter's Laboratory is a private creation of insurance companies intended to help the companies decide whether they will or will not insure. There is a side effect to even that. If you sell something that electrocutes someone, you're almost certain to be sued for more money than you have, even if you're wealthy. If you didn't bother to have the equipment checked by UL, that will be pointed out to the jury as your having willfully and recklessly avoided trying to make your product safe. UL certification will not prevent your being sued, but it will help provide a defense that you tried, doing all a Reasonable Person could.
That's just the USA. I'm not a expert on Australia, although I think you're required to get certification. I don't know if not getting certification is a criminal or only civil offense. It used to be criminal in certain countries in Europe years ago.
Safety standards grow like coral reefs; each year, a new layer of stuff is overlaid, based on previous standards and any new disasters that have happened. This leads to a maze of requirements that sound very strange if you're new to this.
For instance, there is a general idea that failures will happen, so no one failure should cause a shock hazard. Wires break sometimes, so there are multiple requirements intended to prevent any one wire breaking from causing a shock hazard. That's why all user-touchable metal has to be grounded to safety ground or protected by two complete layers of insulation from hazardous voltages.
The grounded chassis is one way to ensure this. A broken wire that touches the chassis will itself be grounded, and no shock hazard will result. But this is only true if the chassis is connected to safety ground and the ground path can sustain a current that will ensure blowing a fuse. So there are requirements that the chassis ground connection sustain 25A (last time I looked) of current at a voltage under [some small voltage]. And there are special requirements on how that grounding happens. Likewise, a grounded chassis doesn't help if you can reach in the back and touch live wires. So there are requirements on how hard it must be to touch live wires through any opening in the outer enclosure.
This kind of thing goes on for hundreds of pages. When I did the Workhorse amps, I bought a copy of the most current IEC standard and three different textbooks on interpreting that, and dug through it for some months in designing the wiring. Then I took it to a certification lab. They found four things that had to be corrected.
They missed the fact that the main AC switch must be prevented from rotating in its mounting hole. And they're the certification professionals. The bottom line is that depending on where you live (1) if you sell electrical equipment without getting it certified, you're at some legal risk (2) that risk may be civil and/or criminal and (3) meeting safety standards is not a game for amateurs. It's legally risky.
I apologize for the honesty too. It's a little depressing.
Re: Safety Compliance
I've spoken to someone in certification and they have said to send them a copy of the schematics and pictures of the amps and they will let me know what testing needs to be done.
Re: Safety Compliance
As well as all the previous comments - you need to ensure you have the latest standards, which gets expensive in itself unless you know a uni student or library with them.
You also need to go through the process of what acceptance tests need to be done for each item manufactured - I didn't see that in my old 3820 revision - perhaps its in 60065, or you have to go to the likes of 3100. But it probably requires at least an insulation resistance tester and probably a voltage withstand test, and perhaps an electrical compliance tag tester (not sure what is in them nowadays).
Are you ok with only buying AC mains side components/cable that are properly compliant and traceable to reputable manufacturer - perhaps no more bargain basement parts, or not going through nominated distributors/wholesalers.
You also need to go through the process of what acceptance tests need to be done for each item manufactured - I didn't see that in my old 3820 revision - perhaps its in 60065, or you have to go to the likes of 3100. But it probably requires at least an insulation resistance tester and probably a voltage withstand test, and perhaps an electrical compliance tag tester (not sure what is in them nowadays).
Are you ok with only buying AC mains side components/cable that are properly compliant and traceable to reputable manufacturer - perhaps no more bargain basement parts, or not going through nominated distributors/wholesalers.
Re: Safety Compliance
The applicable IEC standard for guitar amps is 60065. I know from modestly painful experience.trobbins wrote:You also need to go through the process of what acceptance tests need to be done for each item manufactured - I didn't see that in my old 3820 revision - perhaps its in 60065, or you have to go to the likes of 3100.
In addition to the test equipment you mention, a ground bond tester is needed, to force 25A of ground current through any accessible metal to the AC safety ground.
Much of the equipment can be rented; this is of only minor help to a DIYer, as the rents are quite expensive for currently calibrated equipment. Also, only some countries allow self-certification. The EU allows it; I don't know if Australia does, or if they require a certified testing agency.
Re: Safety Compliance
I've been reading this thread over the past week and it honestly scares the shit out of me. I've been planning on building a couple amps to sell to make a little extra money lately. After reading this however I'm not sure I want to do it anymore. I guess what I should be asking is, what should someone who wants to build a few amps here and there to sell do with regards to the issues raised in this thread? I build Hifi tube amps everyday for the company I work for, but the thought of being personally liable for an amp I built on my own time scares me to no end. Even if it is some small .0001% chance of it ever happening.
Re: Safety Compliance
Yes the current (2009) AS/NZS 3820 is very general and is only 17 pages total. It specifically mentions the product standards and as has been said already AS/NZS 60065 (AS/NZS version of the IEC) is the relevant standard for audio amplifiers. 3820 also says "Suppliers may use independent third parties to assist in the assessment of compliance with
clause 4". So in Australia for non-prescribed equipment you can self assess compliance with the standard but you'd want to make sure your documentation was water tight and you have a very clear knowledge on what the product standard requirements mean.
Acceptance tests are detailed in 60065. Current AS/NZS version (2012 including amendment 1 2015) is 181 pages.
clause 4". So in Australia for non-prescribed equipment you can self assess compliance with the standard but you'd want to make sure your documentation was water tight and you have a very clear knowledge on what the product standard requirements mean.
Acceptance tests are detailed in 60065. Current AS/NZS version (2012 including amendment 1 2015) is 181 pages.