amp out of tube radio

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shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

So for laughs I googled tube radios on craigslist, and ended up buying a Zenith portable for $20 after work.

What I've got is a lot of loctal tubes:

Two 1LN5 pentodes
1LA6 heptode mixer
1LH4 triode
3Q5GT pentode
117Z3 rectifier
206CZ512 output transformer. No idea what those numbers mean if anything.
Itty bitty speaker, looks like it's in OK condition

Just downloaded the datasheets for the tubes, but it's late so I haven't digested anything.

What I want to do is fit in a small isolation transformer, de-stink and re-cover the box in purple tolex, and build as high-gain an amp as possible with this ridiculous bunch of tubes. Loctal tubes appear to be dirt cheap, so I've got no particular issues swapping in different ones if these are totally unfit.

Anybody done anything fun with loctal radio tubes before and got some pointers?

[img:1023:682]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... _front.jpg[/img]
[img:1023:682]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... h_back.jpg[/img]
[img:1023:682]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... hassis.jpg[/img]
[img:1023:682]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... h_guts.jpg[/img]
Cosmo
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:38 pm

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Cosmo »

I feel morphing old radio amps is the most fun of all amp design/building. A couple years ago I rebuilt an old RCA radio. I didn't use the cab, but rather built a 1x10 tweed combo with a Weber 12A100 alnico. As you can see I gutted the amp and only salvaged the chassis (with serious mods), PT, and OT.

I built a hi-gain preamp, and it's really quite a screamer.

Very fun project, but a lot of work!
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Don
Unencumbered by Knowledge
Trapped inside this old man's body, is the mind of an old man
shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

Very nice!

I'm busy staring at these low-voltage pentode load lines trying to figure out how I'm going to make this work with 1 heptode, 2 pentode, and 1 triode gain stages before hitting the power tube. They're all very non-linear (and I can't say anything about the heptode, no load lines on its datasheet). Should have a first pass at a schematic done this weekend.

The "briefcase" has tons of room inside, so I'm going outside the chassis to place the isolation transformer and 1.4v power supply (with the cramped quarters I want DC heaters). Various knobs and indicator lights will also be off-chassis.
Markusv
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada (yes it's friggin cold!)

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Markusv »

That's a wicked Dr Z cab!
:)

Markus V
.........Now where did I put it?
Markusv
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:16 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada (yes it's friggin cold!)

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Markusv »

I have 2 amps out of Nordmende Phonographs and they are among my favourites.
Big iron.
Typically supports many preamp tubes to channel hopping becomes an option

M
.........Now where did I put it?
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rdjones
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Location: Music City, TN

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by rdjones »

Markusv wrote:That's a wicked Dr Z cab!
:)

Markus V
? :?:

oh, the "Z" ... :wink:

rd
Dingleberry
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:12 pm

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Dingleberry »

I started getting into amps buying tube radios from thrift stores and flea markets about fifteen years ago and turning them to guitar amps. And I still do that sometimes when I find a cool looking radio for cheap. About a half year ago I finished a project that turned out really nice. Recycled transformers, chassis, and cab.
Made new baffle board out of 9mm birch ply, and it now has 2x8" speaker configuration.
Tight fit but just enough room;) One 12AX7 and one 6V6.
Sounds great and imho looks too.

-T
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shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

So I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out how to make a high-gain amp out of this radio. This is a very silly project, these tubes are totally unsuited for the purpose and they pose a lot of challenges. The chassis is also unfit-for-purpose, with tubes at opposite ends, and nothing in the middle. The radio lacks an isolation transformer, but fortunately there's a battery compartment in the "briefcase" where I can put in a power transformer.

I've attached my schematic to this post, in PDF form. Acrobat has a "rotate" feature you may want to use. I did it in KiCAD using a symbol library I made up myself. Any oddities with symbols are probably my fault, and not KiCAD's.

You'll notice looking at the amp section, that there are no cathodes. The tubes in this radio are all directly heated cathodes, so the filaments in the power supply are the cathodes. This makes biasing a challenge. I used LED's to bias the cathodes, so current changes wouldn't change the filament voltage. The 1N4150 diode on V4 is the only tricky one, it's voltage drop varies slightly with current, but not by a lot, and it's close enough to .5 volts, which is what I wanted to bias that tube at.

Going over the stages of the amp one-by-one, I will explain my rationales for the circuit:

V1 - This is the staple of all guitar amplifiers, the heptode valve. It's a 1LA6 loctal pentagrid converter. The data sheet I downloaded was pretty laughable, with no graphs at all. I've only got a list of "typical use" voltages, so I set the thing up according to the data sheet's recommendations. Given that it uses similar voltages to the 1NL5 pentodes, I cut the plate amps in half from the recommendation, as that's roughly what I did when I drew load lines for the 1NL5's in triode mode. This is a lousy choice of tube for the first stage - it's got the highest voltage out of all the stages but one, so it's second in line on the power supply with the attendant ripple issues, and with all those grids it's microphonic. But, I don't know anything about the tube, and out of sheer perversity I don't want to move tubes and it's near where I want the input jack to be. So for these terrible reasons it shall be the first valve.

V2 - This is a 1NL5 pentode. I will be running it in triode mode. All it does is add more gain, per the load lines I drew I don't expect significant distortion. A relay will switch this stage through to the tone stack / power amp for clean tones. The data sheet is pretty sparse, there is no mutual characteristics graph, so I'm just keeping screen voltage equal to plate voltage.

V3 - This is the second 1NL5 pentode, also in triode mode. This should add a bit of asymmetric distortion. It's biased low so one side of the signal should get really squashed. Again, screen voltage is roughly equal to plate voltage.

V4 - Finally, an actual triode. Well, a diode/triode combo, really. This stage is just the triode portion. The data sheet for this one is also lousy - they've got the graphs, but the parts of the graph that are useful are down at the bottom where all the lines are squashed together. Why run up an axis to 1500 microamperes if typical usage is at 150? Jerks. Using this lousy graph I took a stab at a -0.5 bias, and V3 is going to send enough voltage that it will distort ridiculously no matter where I bias the thing anyhow.

Tone stack - Mildly tweaked Fender Brownface tonestack. I like it because it only has 2 knobs, and works well with high impedance inputs. I'm not wasting a tube on a cathode follower just to drive a tonestack. Even if I was so inclined, it would be weird to try with directly heated cathodes.

Power amp - This is a single-ended power amp using a 3Q5GT pentode. This tube is NOT loctal, so it comes out of the socket without any fuss. I disconnected the speaker and output transformer, the speaker looks like it's around 4 ohms, and the transformer is a 50:1 winding (measured using variac), so that's a 10k ohm load. If I don't want to exceed max dissipation, I'll need to keep it at 75 volts - which is what the original radio schematic was using. I'm biasing it at -4.5v using a nice bright LED, which is also how the original schematic had it biased (well they used a series of tube filaments to bias, but same effect). I then tossed in a 2k resistor onto the screen for safety since I'll be overdriving this thing, which was definitely not in the original circuit design. The data sheets once again lack a mutual characteristics graph, so I'm not 100% sure what the difference in screen voltage is going to do. Probably not much, it's not a big difference.

That's the pre and power amp. Now, on to the power supply. The radio I bought had been modified to use a 117Z3 rectifier instead of a 117Z6GT/G. The thing is, a 117Z3 is just a single diode. How you make a power supply using one diode, I don't know. I expect it didn't work. A smaller socket has been put in place for the 117Z3 so somebody went to a lot of effort. Whatever, these tubes are dirt cheap, so I'll order a 117Z6GT/G and a socket for it.

A problem with the 117Z6GT/G is that it lists a 40 uf filter capacitor in the data sheet. That's not very big. So I designed a pi filter, with one leg being 39 uf, and the next 1000uf, with a 750 ohm resistor in between. I really want the filter caps to be large to minimize the ripple going to V1, which is the second tube in the chain. But, I'm wondering if 750 ohms is enough to keep that 1000uf cap from smoking the rectifier. Maybe I should just toss the whole notion of a tube rectifier and stick with diodes.

Speaking of diodes, the transformer I've purchased is an Antek AN-05T120 (http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=637). The radio didn't have a power transformer, so this will provide isolation and some low voltage DC. It doesn't have a center tap, so I will use a pair of diodes with the tube rectifier to form a bridge rectifier.

Low voltage for the filaments will be provided by a 2A 7.5V voltage regulator, so it will be clean. It's plenty of current for the last part of this schematic, which is the LED indicators.

The radio has a transparent Perspex arc in its face that shows the radio frequency. I will line up two rows of LED's behind the Perspex, and they will indicate the gain and volume. The gain and volume pots will be dual-gang, and the second half of each will drive a series of LM339 quad comparator IC's that compare the pot's value and turn on the appropriate LED's. Pointless, but it does something with that Perspex strip that would otherwise look stupid.

All comments are welcome, I'm sure there's stupid mistakes and bad ideas in this schematic, and I'd love to be corrected early.
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shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

This project is still happening, if anybody is paying attention.

a. So the half-wave rectifier was apparently done by the factory, I saw another mode of this radio on eBay with the same rectifier tube. Must've been a noisy radio when plugged into the AC... Whatever! Homey don't half-wave-rectify, so that's out of the circuit

b. I desoldered everything from all the sockets and stripped down the chassis (except for riveted-on parts - have to drill those out). Very annoying work, it was incredibly cramped, parts were piled on top of parts, and every lead was knotted on before soldering. It must have cost a fortune to repair these radios back in the day

A wrench was used to remove the tuning capacitor and some other random wax-coated parts inside the radio

c. I noticed that the biasing LED's were never going to handle the heater currents going through them, whoops. I'll use silicon diodes instead for biasing

d. I'm going to change the topology, put the triode first, then the heptode, then the two pentodes, and finally the 1/8w power tube. The triode has the least headroom, so it gets the guitar signal. Makes a lot more sense that way. It will be biased at 0v. The data sheet is showing a curve at +0.5v on the grid, and the gain is too pitiful if I bias it lower than that

e. I'm tossing out all the attenuation as well. I'll add that back in if necessary

f. Also getting rid of the tonestack, it will attenuate the signal too much and I don't want to add a tube for a recovery stage

g. I think I'll add negative feedback from the OT when the hi-gain channel is selected

Time to put together a Mouser order
cesout
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:45 pm

octal tube amps

Post by cesout »

Cool project. Have browser will follow.

Speaking of octal tube amps, my next project is an Ampeg Reverberocket R12R clone. I've got most of the parts, need power tranny. Gonna make the chassis for it of course. I've got two different chassis designs. One is the original combo config and the other is a head style config.
shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

The briefcase-style cabinet is stripped to bare wood, I just have to cut out a few rivets with a dremel to release the feet & bottom hinges. And then re-tolex it (bleah, lots of curves - no idea how this will come out).

Question: some of the metal hardware is pretty attached to the cabinet, and rusty to boot. So, any good product that will strip away rust "in situ" without destroying the plywood? I can't use anything that I have to soak these two particular brackets in, because the plywood will soak as well and that's bad news... maybe there's a not-very-harsh gel or something that I can paint on

Ahh well, off to go inhale a bunch of solder fumes. cesout prepared a second metal chassis for me to hold the power supply, that should be showing up in a few days, so something should be assembled and functional before the end of January.
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Jack Hester
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Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Jack Hester »

shoggoth wrote: What I want to do is fit in a small isolation transformer, de-stink and re-cover the box in purple tolex, and build as high-gain an amp as possible with this ridiculous bunch of tubes. Loctal tubes appear to be dirt cheap, so I've got no particular issues swapping in different ones if these are totally unfit.

Anybody done anything fun with loctal radio tubes before and got some pointers?
A man after my own heart. I'll be following your work. I'm planning a similar project, to have on my bench at work. But, not only do I plan to have an instrument input, but an input for an MP3 player board. That way, I can listen to my favorite music, without using the radio.

Keep up the good work.

Jack
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Structo
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Location: Oregon

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by Structo »

That Zenith in the OP is cool looking.

The early portable radios used large banks of batteries.

So the tubes used reflect that.

By the way, a trivia moment, B+ voltage got it's name from old battery powered gear.
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
shoggoth
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:56 am

Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

Some pics of the work in progress. They were taken with my phone, so the quality is iffy.

There's no room in the main chassis for the big power supply caps or any of the associated fuse holders, jacks, etc, so cesout made me a second power supply chassis from some DXF files I sent him. It showed up today, and I stuck all the fuse holders, jacks, etc in to see what it looks like. I need to get a faceplate for it so it can be neatly labelled.

[img:1024:768]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... e8ab70.jpg[/img]

Here's the main chassis. I scratched through the galvanization in many spots when I was hammering radio parts off of it, so I primed it & painted it gold with some old paint. Very old paint, and gold flakes kept falling off, so I bought the cheapest clearcoat I could and gave it one coat of that. Now it's not flaking gold paint dust anymore.

There's no room inside for the channel switching relays, so they get stuck up top. Only one relay is used for switching right now, the other is for "expansion". I'll find something to do with it, I'm sure. The volume control will also be mounted outside the chassis, where the tuning knob used to be.

[img:1024:768]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... 5ba29c.jpg[/img]

Here's the preamp circuit board, partially assembled. I don't have a drill press, so the drill walked all over the place and the holes aren't lined up as nice as I'd like. I also make constant design changes as I'm messing around with it, so there are plenty of extra holes and that larger filter cap is a late addition, so it's off-kilter to fit the existing layout.

See that cluster of three resistors in the lower left? Those are for the plate, screen, and oscillator plate of the heptode. The brown wires are heater grounds - directly heated cathodes mean the heaters are part of the preamp circuitry.

[img:1024:768]http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee25 ... 62247c.jpg[/img]
shoggoth
Posts: 165
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Re: amp out of tube radio

Post by shoggoth »

Another question:

I'm thinking of printing out a long strip of water-slide decal and spraying my cheap clearcoat over that after applying it to the chassis.

But there are two tiny nicks in the chassis. I'm thinking that will make it look lousy (an air bubble or puncture or something). Anybody have experience with water slide decals? Should I not bother since I've got those nicks?
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