What's your favorite Orange drop?

[Tdale]

I've always used the 715 caps. Do the 716 or PS sound any different in your opinion?

What should I use?

Tommy

[Colossal]

Tommy,

Orange Drop is a generic term and they come in two flavors: polypropylene and polyester. This seems to cause a lot of confusion because people often lump an Orange Drop capacitor as a cap used in a Fender type amp only. This is not the case. Very generally speaking, Polypropylene ODs such as the SBE 715P or 716P series give a fast transient response and typically have tight, punchy low end, less midrange focus, and smooth to bright top. A Polyester OD such as the 6PS, SBE 225P, or Mallory PVC6x series have more midrange focus and a slight "smear" to the top end giving it a smooth feel. I hesitate to say warmer as polypropylene caps offer plenty of bass but it's the degree of focus that is different.

To answer your question though, there is no one right answer. There are different caps for different applications and often different types are used in the same amp to shape the amp's tone. You most certainly could build a Marshall with all 715P or 716P ODs and there's no "rule" that says you cannot, but it will likely feel a bit more modern (if that makes any sense) than a typical vintage sounding Marshall which most often use polyester caps. It's all in the sound that you are looking for. I use Polypropylene (not necessarily in an "orange drop" format either) for some things like cathode bypass in some amps, polyester or polypropylene for coupling (depends on the amp and even the position in the amp), polyester for tonestacks (other cap types too) so it very much depends. If I build a classic Marshall clone however with a specific era in mind, I would use polyester (Sozo etc) throughout. That said, I have used polypropylene in specific locations in vintage Marshalls. Finally, Trainwreck amps used Orange Drops. They were Mallory PVC series POLYESTER orange drops and people confuse this with some kind of Fender association when a Wreck doesn't sound anything like a Fender. A Dumble amp uses the SBE 6PS polyester ODs and it does have some association with a Fender clean sound. It's the dielectric material that matters, not the form it comes in.

So, short answer is that it totally depends on what you are doing

[Lonely Raven]

That's some food for thought right there!

Colossal, on a similar thread, how do you feel about resistors? Can you impart some information for us newbs?

[Colossal]

Colossal, on a similar thread, how do you feel about resistors?

Well that's a hard one too. The answer I think is that it all depends. You know the arguments where some camps/schools-of-thought swear by carbon composition while others disagree etc. Others say metal film resistors sound great while others disagree and say they sound harsh and sterile. Without getting into a pointless and circular argument (to each his own), I think it depends on the build type in determining what resistor types you use and where. If you are making a strict, purist clone of say a Fender amp, then carbon comps might get the nod for historical accuracy and the tone they impart. Vishay RN65s for a Dumble. Carbon Films for a Trainwreck. In guitar amps where we are not as concerned about linearity as the high fidelity folk, I think there is less overall hair-splitting about absolutely every little detail that a resistor can impart.

In general, I prefer to use 2-3W metal film resistors for plate loads and definitely for the input jack-to-V1 grid leak (the 1M resistor). Good quality metal films are very quiet, can be quite natural sounding and I (personally) have not found them to be sterile. I like to hear the guitar but also the voice of the amp. I have built Marshally type amps using metal films throughout, given them to a player with no bias, or preconceived knowledge of these things and they swear it's the warmest, clearest sounding Marshall they've played. I've also built them with a combination of metal films (for plate loads, grid leaks), carbon films for cathodes, and carbon composition for the PI plate loads and gotten similar responses from the players. If you are trying for specific mojo, Carbon compositions might generally be best used where there would be a fairly large difference in voltage across the resistor (PI) because of some intrinsic qualities they possess which add some 2nd harmonic sweetness.

Some guys like metal films, others carbon film or comp, others just select based on price or what's in the parts bin. Best thing is to find what you like. Are you a purist or do you just like a circuit and don't care about historical accuracy? There are as many answers to this question as there are guys building amps.

[jjman]

Is there any documentation regarding the frequency response of cap type A vs B? It can’t be all mojo and folklore. Someone must have quantified the allegations, no?

[Tdale]

and what about cap orientation? Is there any "proof" that it affects sound/noise?

[Ian444]

I beg anyone wondering about "the sound of caps" to try this simple experiment. You can buy some cheap "X1" or "X2" mains caps, they are mass-produced in the millions and used for mains filtering circuits in many mains appliances. They are designed to run across the mains voltage, and can be MKT (polyester) or MKP (polystyrene), both types are self-healing. Run a pair of these as coupling caps from your phase splitter to your output tubes and have a listen. You may be shocked at how good they sound, or maybe not. The worst caps I ever bought and heard were encased in copper and cost a lot, that was for a hifi amp, where you want everything to come through untouched.

What Colosal says makes sense to me. Is it documented? Not that I know of. Proof on orientation? Dunno. Best to have a listen, actually I did do that once and couldn't tell the difference. I would be more worried about the transformer choices or speaker or strings on the guitar or the type of gaffa tape holding my pedals together...just jokin' about the gaffa

[Tdale]

I guess the sound of caps is not a big issue. Noise however, could mean something I suppose, grounding the outer part of the cap in stead of the inner part..

Tommy

[markr14850]

Some info on the "sound of caps": http://greygum.net/sbench/sbench102/caps.html

[Colossal]

I guess the sound of caps is not a big issue.

LOL, tell that to a hi-fi guy and I hope you are wearing riot gear when you do! Actually, the sound of the cap is important as the sum of the parts makes up the overall tone of the amp.

Noise however, could mean something I suppose, grounding the outer part of the cap in stead of the inner part...

Check out Gabi's do-it-yourself cap outer foil tester:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP6ZIHXq6Yg

[jmohr58]

Hello Tdale/Tommy and everyone else,
I am new to this forum and I recently had the same question regarding the difference between the Orange Drop 715P and 716P series.
My research boiled down to the main difference is that when they manufacture the 715P series, the caps vary in size and shape slightly from cap to cap in the same value range, ie. 0.022uF, 0.1uf etc. This makes it impossible to use the automated component loading equiptment for pcb loading in a factory setting. So the 716P Series is pressed to an exacting uniform shape and size from cap to cap in the same value range, so that they will fit perfectly into the automated pcb loading equiptment since all 0.22uF caps are exactly the same size and shape. And all 0.1uF caps are all identical etc, etc, etc. Otherwise the 715 and 716 series are basically the same. Although in the datasheet on the 716 it's listed as a high perfomance version of the 715P. Unless uniform size is an issue, I personally don't care to spend extra for the 716P. Plus the Service Tech at TubeDepot.com I spoke with (Not the Sales guy upfront) who explained this to me said they sounded the same to him.
I hope this helps,
Jerry

[jmohr58]

Hello Tdale/Tommy and everyone else,
I am new to this forum and I recently had the same question regarding the difference between the Orange Drop 715P and 716P series.
My research boiled down to the main difference is that when they manufacture the 715P series, the caps vary in size and shape slightly from cap to cap in the same value range, ie. 0.022uF, 0.1uf etc. This makes it impossible to use the automated component loading equiptment for pcb loading in a factory setting. So the 716P Series is pressed to an exacting uniform shape and size from cap to cap in the same value range, so that they will fit perfectly into the automated pcb loading equiptment since all 0.22uF caps are exactly the same size and shape. And all 0.1uF caps are all identical etc, etc, etc. Otherwise the 715 and 716 series are basically the same. Although in the datasheet on the 716 it's listed as a high perfomance version of the 715P. Unless uniform size is an issue, I personally don't care to spend extra for the 716P. Plus the Service Tech at TubeDepot.com I spoke with (Not the Sales guy upfront) who explained this to me said they sounded the same to him.
I hope this helps,
Jerry

[rp]

I read in several places that the 715s have steel leads and the 716s Cu.

I used 715 for years as when I started in the late '80s they were what everyone used, and there were no 30 page web discussions on caps. I've replaced them all with various types, NOS, 150s, 6PS. I prefer them all over the 715. In a nutshell I hear a kind of '80s amp grind/buzz and coldness to the OD sound with the 715s. Not right for old style clones IMO. I also do PTP and they are too big, in fact for the subtle differences the size alone is a reason to avoid them. They are the sound of '80s amps however. The 6PS is a more neutral cap it's nice and clear transparent sounding that can do the modern or vintage thing without too many hifi drawbacks of modern caps. I think I prefer it to the 150s but I've never a-b'd them. Maybe the 150s are a touch darker and murkier, but not sure here. I like NOS molded, I think their deficiencies bring a wealth of color and surprises to the sound. Must try Sozos next, but boutique stuff usually lets me down. Smart experienced people here sing their praises.

[rsalinger]

I guess the sound of caps is not a big issue.

LOL, tell that to a hi-fi guy and I hope you are wearing riot gear when you do! Actually, the sound of the cap is important as the sum of the parts makes up the overall tone of the amp.

Noise however, could mean something I suppose, grounding the outer part of the cap in stead of the inner part...

Check out Gabi's do-it-yourself cap outer foil tester:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP6ZIHXq6Yg

I didn't expect that. Thank you for that video.