"THE" tone without all the knobs

heisthl · Post by **heisthl** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:02 pm

Please excuse me if this is not a suitable topic for this forum. This probably doesn't apply to anyone on this forum, but I've noticed a lot of players are afraid of all the knobs and switches. They consider it "gingerbread" and think it's too hard to manage on stage and like options on a car more prone to break downs. Anyone have any ideas on streamlining the design to 3 or 4 knobs? Maybe volume, tone, overdrive and master with no switches? Would the tweed tone circuit totally ruin the OD sound? Speculations welcome before I try and build something.

jaysg · Post by **jaysg** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:10 pm

I think that's why sometimes you see pro equipment with a piece of tape across the tolex with all the settings in Sharpie. I swear I remember a Santana inteview where he's whining about too many knobs and switches robbing tone...then years later he goes and buys a few Dumbles.

nickt · Post by **nickt** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:56 pm

heisthl wrote:Please excuse me if this is not a suitable topic for this forum. This probably doesn't apply to anyone on this forum, but I've noticed a lot of players are afraid of all the knobs and switches. They consider it "gingerbread" and think it's too hard to manage on stage and like options on a car more prone to break downs. Anyone have any ideas on streamlining the design to 3 or 4 knobs? Maybe volume, tone, overdrive and master with no switches? Would the tweed tone circuit totally ruin the OD sound? Speculations welcome before I try and build something.

No heisthl - think this is interesting.

As a player I've always had a set and forget approach to knobs - then again I play a strat through an AC30 so there aren't too many knobs to begin with. Back in the day when I had a Marshall everything was full on so again it was set and forget (but brain fryingly loud).

Others have talked about 3 distinct sounds from a Dumble - Clean, PAB and PAB+OD. This seems to indicate the tone circuit is second order. Having absolutely no personal dumble experience I can't comment whether this is accurate.

[ignorance]

So which knobs/switches to loose?

1. never seen a presence knob other than full on (maybe presence could go fixed?)
2. always hated master volumes - sorry Omar this *is* a religious comment - and surely you only need one!!

3. brite switch - choose, solder and forget

4. mid boost - choose, solder and forget

5. jazz/rock - all comments seem to be "this does nothing"

[/ignorance]

Of course a better approach would be to survey who uses what and when depending on situation/guitar/style etc. This might show what's always full on/off/unused.

... 2c

ayan · Post by **ayan** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:14 am

heisthl wrote:Please excuse me if this is not a suitable topic for this forum. This probably doesn't apply to anyone on this forum, but I've noticed a lot of players are afraid of all the knobs and switches. They consider it "gingerbread" and think it's too hard to manage on stage and like options on a car more prone to break downs. Anyone have any ideas on streamlining the design to 3 or 4 knobs? Maybe volume, tone, overdrive and master with no switches? Would the tweed tone circuit totally ruin the OD sound? Speculations welcome before I try and build something.

My experience with these amps in the last 8 years boils down to:

1. I never use the switches, other than at home to "do something with them" every now and then.

2. My preamp volume control always stays at 11 o' clock (and it stayed at 1 o'clock with the HRM amps).

3. My middle control always stays halfway up.

4. My presence control always stays at the point where it starts to work.

That means that what changes is:

1. Treble and bass controls... they have to be changeable. I have played in places where it's all glass they make a 335 sound thin, or at heavily carpeted places where even a Tele souds dull.

2. The drive control has to be tweakable.

3. Which leaves the overall master and OD master, or clean master and OD master if wired independently. Those two need to be adjustable too.

So I believe I could do with an amp with: treble, bass, OD drive, OD (master) volume and clean (master) volume controls.

Cheers,

Gil

Bob-I · Post by **Bob-I** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:41 am

I pretty much set and forget for each room, but each room is different. Presence is critical as it affects the power amp and therefore is more effective than the treble when using OD.

I couldn't live without a master volume on a Dumble style amp as most of the sound comes from the preamp. Many amps get their tone from the PI on so I understand the no-master argument. I've never heard a Wreck or Fender that sounds good with a master volume.

RJ Guitars · Post by **RJ Guitars** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:04 am

I'm not able to contribute anything to the history and experience category, but I'll volunteer as captain of the boosters club for you on this project...

I would tend to agree that there are going to be a few controls where you figure out one spot that suits you and hardwire it in there... I have generally learned how to make the minor adjustments for variations in tone using my guitar controls and seldom touch my amp during a gig.

At any rate, I think it's a great thread and a great quest and I'll follow along cheering loudly!

rj

heisthl · Post by **heisthl** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:30 am

Well this thread is helping already. No preamp volume is a concept I hadn't even considered and it really appeals to me. The use of a "tone" instead of bass and treble eliminates the need for a bright cap and if designed correctly also allows you to preset the mids. Now if I can figure a way to have a single OD drive control that always keeps the level at the proper ratio... Maybe a 4 position rotary switch labeled 40's, 50's 60's and 70's. (Christian,Tbone,Freddie King, Hendrix)
The amp would have a front panel of Volume (really master volume), tone, and the Overdrive control. The rear panel could have an accessable trimmer for preamp volume level to match the players pick attack/pickup strength(the sweet spot). The footswitch could be OD,PAB and Mid Boost.
Any of you tone stack Gurus who want to take a stab at designing a single tone control with switchable mid boost?

v00d00blues79 · Post by **v00d00blues79** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:34 am

Hmm... this brings to mind the use of dual concentric pots... gets me wondering how difficult it would be to alter the values of one to match the values for OD Level and Drive...

Andy

Buschman · Post by **Buschman** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:17 am

I am am not a knob guy. You can make a knob amp sound really bad if you are not careful. I Once had a Rivera & a multi-knob boogie. I end up fiddling all night on stage which is not crowd friendly-plus I still couldn't get a good sound out of them.
I love my one tone knob amps--18 watt trem & 5e3 Deluxe but it is real nice to have tone controls to fatten up a strat on thin out a humbucker. My D'lite seems to clean up pretty good on the OD channel by turning down the guitar volume. I have my OD set pretty light however so maybe it could be a single channel amp. I like my tone controls & master volumes & bright switch(Little Wing switch) on this amp. Omitting anything would mean hardwiring in fixed values on components which would limit the beauty of this circuit.

bcook · Post by **bcook** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:38 am

To simplify even further, consider a PAB only model. You wouldn't need any tone controls, and the midboost could be done the standard way.

Fischerman · Post by **Fischerman** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:44 am

heisthl,
For ideas on the 'Tone' control you might look at the Trace Elliot Velocette (or Gibson GA15). It's basically a regular TMB-style tonestack but the single tone control is a dual pot that turns down the mids as you turn up the treble...bass is fixed. Just food for thought.

odourboy · Post by **odourboy** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:34 pm

heisthl wrote:Any of you tone stack Gurus who want to take a stab at designing a single tone control with switchable mid boost?

I came across this cool little circuit on the Blue Schematic site some time back... submitted by Andy Fuchs!

I've wanted to try it but never got around to it.

odourboy · Post by **odourboy** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:35 pm

Oops - double post

ayan · Post by **ayan** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:46 pm

heisthl wrote: Now if I can figure a way to have a single OD drive control that always keeps the level at the proper ratio...

The reason I think this would never work is that the actual volume (SPL) of the overdrive channel will depend on the pickups. So, for a fixed amp setting, if I dial the overdrive (drive and volume) for my 335 and then plug in my Strat, the OD will become cleaner and MUCH LOUDER because the Strat will not make the amp clip as much and there will not be nearly as much compression. That's why, IMHO, you have got to have both drive and master volumes for the OD channel.

Cheers,

Gil

Sonny ReVerb · Post by **Sonny ReVerb** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:48 pm

You just need a Whizzer like Neil Young uses

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