Best way to get dumble low end power without too much volume

[imo1]

Ok. I hope I’m not clogging up with forum with multiple topics that are related, but this feels like it might be helpful to someone who is on this journey, so…

I’m currently on the road touring with a JM style 100w amp. For anyone who doesn’t know it’s really a combo of an ODS and a SSS with an amazing reverb.

I do use pedals, but my rhythm sound is something that is more integrated with my lead sound, so my clean sound is stylistically in the realm of a super reverb on about 6. I can get it to clean up with less attack, but it also does that swampy rhythm thing that is fundamental to my, and many other peoples style.

My issue is that it’s just too loud. I am the frontman of my band so I can dictate band volume. We play a lot of pretty big places, but even so, and with a plexiglass shield, it’s just too much. I tried the 2 tubes removed and as pointed out in my other topic, it wasn’t effective enough to be something I would do. I am familiar with what a true master(post PI) would do, but I’m wondering if I might be have better results with a power section scaled to really let the amp play where it should.

I’m considering a few routes with my next amp. I really prefer 6l6 for my sound. More open and round, but am considering a 2 6v6 power section ala the D’lite. I’m also thinking something 2 6l6 but getting away from the over specced OT and into something closer to a super reverb.

So here’s the rub. I get that a big part of that low end clarity and power is that big OT. I know people have been trying to find this sweet spot for players, including HAD himself, for a long time. What have y’all done that seemed to jump this gap in the most pleasing way?

[pompeiisneaks]

I honestly think for what you're looking for, 6V6's won't help a ton, if 50W is too loud, the dual 6V6's are also really loud. This is the common dillemma with good tube sound is that you need those power tubes being pushed to get that glory. The thing that seems to work best, honestly, is a reactive attenuator, so it simulates the missing speaker and the dynamics aren't impacted as heavily. There are also some mosfet based power droppers to reduce the voltage that also seem to work some as well. Either way, even an AC15 with two el84's is loud as hell to get that tone.

~Phil

[imo1]

I honestly think for what you're looking for, 6V6's won't help a ton, if 50W is too loud, the dual 6V6's are also really loud. This is the common dillemma with good tube sound is that you need those power tubes being pushed to get that glory. The thing that seems to work best, honestly, is a reactive attenuator, so it simulates the missing speaker and the dynamics aren't impacted as heavily. There are also some mosfet based power droppers to reduce the voltage that also seem to work some as well. Either way, even an AC15 with two el84's is loud as hell to get that tone.

~Phil

Phil,

Thanks man. I know! I’ve used so many different amps over the years, and pieces of them that really make it shine. There is a component of that big 4 6l6 into the twin style OT that also is part of that. I feel like the design component is like bombing the Death Star. So many real world tweaks.
I have an attenuator that I use with my other amp. I’m not sure if it can handle the 100w. That said, when I use that, the effect is so minimal that I eventually stopped using it.

I’ve also thought about going with a 2 tube rectifier system to see if I can get some of that funkiness that I love in a super style build. The solid state rect, combined with the OT has a bit of that twin “quackiness” in the way the kids respond. It works for the Mayer type players, but in more funky, swampy stuff the stiffness can be an issue

[Reeltarded]

Buy Aaron's Dumbleator in the for sale section. Done. It goes in the loop and you use it as the master.

This REALLY is THEE answer.

[imo1]

Ok! I’ll give a go. Really doesn’t change gain structure?

[imo1]

This one?

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35343

[martin manning]

Having a D'lator in the loop wouldn't really be any different from using the existing master, which is already at the PI input. The power amp is really pretty clean, so I don't know if there is a better solution than turning the master down. Adjusting the EQ to add more bass and treble would help make up for the human hearing ("loudness" bass and treble boost), but a good part of it is just moving a lot of air.

[Reeltarded]

you arrange the input of the Dltr to be hotter and dump the tail. It works a little like pseudo expansion/compansion

It works 30% more than any other thing I know of, as far as trapping the similar sound while limiting volume.

Yes that unit. Looks like it might be moving already.

Ok, another loop thing that simply kicks ass is a DBX capable of over-easy and a parametric. I use Rane PE models, lower numbers best, 15 and -17 ok to go. You set all mid bands flat and the low/hi bands are shelf. The compressor (last in series) is set for trigger only less than 1db on the most insane pick attack and the make up is the system master. It's not easy to find good condition rack gear, but these tools are more useful than anything else I have used in 40 years of pro thingy. Do you know anyone with a Distressor? You should hit a friend up for a test drive on the idea.

[talbany]

This has always been a popular issue for us guitar players? How do we lower the overall volume without altering both sound and feel of a tube amplifier?
IMO there is no perfect remedy only compromise. Since a big part of the sound and feel is attributed to the current handling of all output tubes, output transformer, changes in air pressures all interacting with the load (Speaker). It's this complete system of the transfer of energy both positive and negative (back EMF) that determines a large portion of the response characteristics, particularly the feel of the amp (low end). Combine that with the point of output tube distortion (not to mention acoustic coupling)
Change or alter (or try to simulate)any one element (pre or power amp) in the chain it's simply put "Not the same" Some make the argument that a resistive load is the way to go, others will say some sort of voltage regulation is the way to go,PPMv LarMar's etc. i've tried them all and for me it;s always a compromise therefore hard to recommend something for someone else.If your looking to control mainly output tube distortion?,the resistive load is the cheapest, easiest and less invasive way to go. I would try that 1st.


Tony

[imo1]

This has always been a popular issue for us guitar players? How do we lower the overall volume without altering both sound and feel of a tube amplifier?
IMO there is no perfect remedy only compromise. Since a big part of the sound and feel is attributed to the current handling of all output tubes, output transformer, changes in air pressures all interacting with the load (Speaker). It's this complete system of the transfer of energy both positive and negative (back EMF) that determines a large portion of the response characteristics, particularly the feel of the amp (low end). Combine that with the point of output tube distortion (not to mention acoustic coupling)
Change or alter (or try to simulate)any one element (pre or power amp) in the chain it's simply put "Not the same" Some make the argument that a resistive load is the way to go, others will say some sort of voltage regulation is the way to go,PPMv LarMar's etc. i've tried them all and for me it;s always a compromise therefore hard to recommend something for someone else.If your looking to control mainly output tube distortion?,the resistive load is the cheapest, easiest and less invasive way to go. I would try that 1st.


Tony

I am going to use the amp tonight with a 100W attenuator. Sounded good at soundcheck. And yes, it definitely is one we are always chipping away at. I think different rooms really have a lot to do with it as well. I am going to be putting Warehouse 65's in next monday and will try those for the last few shows before I fly home.

[bepone]

to reduce amp volume and preserve the tone is difficult..
ear plugs like no 1 and other solution is to reduce output volume on the speaker side, ie choose other speakers with lower efficiency, (lower dB number) jensen is producing now some nice speakers theese days with not so screaming sound like eminence or celestion.
what are the speakers now=?

[imo1]

I am using vintage 30s that were in the cab I used with the head prior. I was getting a bit of cone cry so I am actually going the other way and getting warehouse 65s!
I know! Sounds like I’m going in 2 ways at once. To some degree I am, because I’m trying to find the best spot for my playing while getting to know the amp.

A bit of entertainment for the moment: last night I hooked up my attenuator. Looked up the specs and it seemed to be good for 100w. I was about midway through the show when my volume started dropping dramatically. In the heat of the performance(pretty flustered) I pulled out my other head and used it for the rest of the show. Afterwards it dawned on me to try the attenuator. Pulled it out and the amp was perfect.

Now on the find another attenuator. Suggestions?

[ijedouglas]

Something else you may want to throw in the mix is an iso cab. I have a Silent Sister https://www.rivera.com/product/cabinets/silent-sister/ with an EV12L in it that I can seriously crank the amp without breaking windows. I have not done an AB test with a mic and my regular 2x12 to do a tone comparison but it may be worth a shot.

[imo1]

Something else you may want to throw in the mix is an iso cab. I have a Silent Sister https://www.rivera.com/product/cabinets/silent-sister/ with an EV12L in it that I can seriously crank the amp without breaking windows. I have not done an AB test with a mic and my regular 2x12 to do a tone comparison but it may be worth a shot.

Thanks! I’ve used them a few time live. I have one for the studio. I miss the air moving, and the power.. again, trying to plot that path.
Just bought a 200w attenuator on reccs from a couple of folks that were using it. I have 3 more shows before I’m done. I’ll try that out and report back

[bepone]

I am using vintage 30s that were in the cab I used with the head prior

sorry but vintage 30 is a disaster speaker , you will loose you hearing with that.. it is useless. find anything better, lets say celestion 12-65 they are 97dB and mellowish sound so your loudness perception will be night and day from v30.. your problem is the shitty speaker not attenuator or amp 100W..