Non-NOS component choices

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beasleybodyshop
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by beasleybodyshop »

Think about the bigger Dumble - inspired amp manufacturers out there. They *have* to use modern, off the shelf, relatively easy to source parts to be able to sell them worldwide and be ROHS compliant.

I've got a D style amp that was kindly built for me by one of these guys and lo and behold, I open it up for academic interest and see it's full of stuff I could buy from mouser. Fire up the amp and it sings like the Dumbly-est Dumble amp made. It can be done, and with pretty basic parts but i'd argue the layout of specific things are very key to getting the "bloom" and "articulation".

You can make a great amp with 1/2 watt xicon metal films and Panasonic ECQs if you play with the layout in the critical first two stages :D :D :D
"It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh..."
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martin manning
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by martin manning »

:wink:
rootz
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by rootz »

Hence this thread :wink:
talbany
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by talbany »

beasleybodyshop wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:44 pm Think about the bigger Dumble - inspired amp manufacturers out there. They *have* to use modern, off the shelf, relatively easy to source parts to be able to sell them worldwide and be ROHS compliant.

I've got a D style amp that was kindly built for me by one of these guys and lo and behold, I open it up for academic interest and see it's full of stuff I could buy from mouser. Fire up the amp and it sings like the Dumbly-est Dumble amp made. It can be done, and with pretty basic parts but i'd argue the layout of specific things are very key to getting the "bloom" and "articulation".

You can make a great amp with 1/2 watt xicon metal films and Panasonic ECQs if you play with the layout in the critical first two stages :D :D :D
Lets have a Dumble Shoot out 8) Bring the one with the Xicons! :lol:
Tony
Last edited by talbany on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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martin manning
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by martin manning »

I would love to see that happen! Even better a convention of D clones and players all taking turns!
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Colossal
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by Colossal »

martin manning wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:33 pm I would love to see that happen! Even better a convention of D clones and players all taking turns!
This would be just plain fun. Have a part trade and sale, drink some good libations, and commiserate.
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pompeiisneaks
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by pompeiisneaks »

So who's planning DAMPFEST 2020? (Dumble ampfest...sorry couldn't resist)

:)

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talbany
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by talbany »

Think about the bigger Dumble - inspired amp manufacturers out there. They *have* to use modern, off the shelf, relatively easy to source parts to be able to sell them worldwide and be ROHS compliant.
I'll let you in on a little secret :shock:
Many of these amp manufacturers who build Dumble style amps (Two Rock being 1) also carry (or are constantly on the watch) for an assortment of NOS parts as well for special requests or clients willing to pay the extra money or if they have a high profile player they want to have play their amps they will use NOS parts in some of these amps.Most of these builders are well aware of how these NOS parts shape the sound of these amps. I used to trade parts with some of these guy's years ago when they hung out here. It's no big secret. Of course they are not going to use rare hard to find 'expensive' NOS parts in their everyday line they sell to the general public or have to ship overseas due to ROHAS Laws. It's just not cost effective.
BTW. Many of these "Dumble " style amps I've played from some commercial builders using new parts, do not sound or remind me of any real Dumble amp I've played,many of them will even admit to this :lol: ( Two Rock being the closest of all of them so far)
I've got a D style amp that was kindly built for me by one of these guys and lo and behold, I open it up for academic interest and see it's full of stuff I could buy from mouser. Fire up the amp and it sings like the Dumbly-est Dumble amp made. It can be done, and with pretty basic parts but i'd argue the layout of specific things are very key to getting the "bloom" and "articulation".
So my question is have you ever played a real ODS? if so what model and what generation and if possible serial #. OR? ever built an ODS with the same parts Dumble used and new parts and compare them side by side for frame of reference or done any empirical real world testing with respect to NOS. Other words how do you know which one you would like better if you never played one with NOS parts Dumble used. You might prefer it over the Xicons. 8) I did!
I don't have any doubts that anyone could build a "Great sounding"replica with "New Parts" that sings!.However, the real question is does it really sound feel and perform like the real ones Dumble made is another topic and what I am chasing when using NOS..Apples and Oranges
You can make a great amp with 1/2 watt xicon metal films and Panasonic ECQs if you play with the layout in the critical first two stages
So what exactly do you mean when you say "Play with the layout?". So you can use any parts you want as long as you do something to the layout to make it more articulate and bloom? This I gotta hear :lol:



IMO. It's a little difficult to say that your Ferrari replica performs and feels like the best real Ferrari-est of Ferrari's ever made if you have never actually driven a real Ferrari :?

Tony
Last edited by talbany on Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
rootz
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by rootz »

I hear you Tony. The scope of this thread wasn’t about if NOS parts get you the Ferrari, but if we can get really close by not using Ferrari Parts, but e.g. readily available Lamborghini parts. AFAIU, your answer to this is no and as far is I can see in this thread, and following some experiences TKD resistors are probably not the way to go.

Then again, the only pretty scientific method is to directly compare NOS parts against new in the exact same amp, with everything being equal except the resistors. Or swap all resistors in a real Dumble for Xicons and see what we end up with :lol:

Concerning layout and lead dress: Beasley seems to advocate that it is more layout and lead dress that determines sound than parts selection. How else could you build a more Dumbly than Dumble clone with Mouser parts? The question if you compared it to a real Dumble seems legit though.
talbany
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by talbany »

I hear you Tony. The scope of this thread wasn’t about if NOS parts get you the Ferrari, but if we can get really close by not using Ferrari Parts, but e.g. readily available Lamborghini parts.
OK!. So my question back would then be? How close do you want to get? :wink:
BTW. I think I'll do a video on this topic and share some of my experiences trying a bunch of these different parts. Would that help?

Tony
" The psychics on my bench is the same as Dumble'"
mojotom
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by mojotom »

talbany wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:51 pm
I hear you Tony. The scope of this thread wasn’t about if NOS parts get you the Ferrari, but if we can get really close by not using Ferrari Parts, but e.g. readily available Lamborghini parts.
OK!. So my question back would then be? How close do you want to get? :wink:
BTW. I think I'll do a video on this topic and share some of my experiences trying a bunch of these different parts. Would that help?

Tony
Every post from you help a lot ;)
rootz
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by rootz »

talbany wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:51 pm
I hear you Tony. The scope of this thread wasn’t about if NOS parts get you the Ferrari, but if we can get really close by not using Ferrari Parts, but e.g. readily available Lamborghini parts.
OK!. So my question back would then be? How close do you want to get? :wink:
BTW. I think I'll do a video on this topic and share some of my experiences trying a bunch of these different parts. Would that help?

Tony
Yes! That would help tremendously I'd say. For those who hanvn't got a real Dumble and/or a sizeable stack of NOS parts, this is invaluable.

By the way, Jelle still sells NOS Draloric resistors if one of you is looking for them.
rootz
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by rootz »

I was thinking double blind test by the way. No one knows which components are used on which clip, clips should be coded. It should be better if you don't know the resistors being used too (double blind) but that is difficult to achieve. If I were you (but I am not) I'd pre-record some samples and play them back through an actual modified and unmodified version of the same amp.

Results will be interesting in far more than one way. Will we pick the amp with the NOS parts as the most genuine Dumble clone? Will we prefer NOS over say Xicon?

If you need funds for parts, let me know. I'd be happy to help.
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erwin_ve
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by erwin_ve »

rootz wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:16 pm I was thinking double blind test by the way. No one knows which components are used on which clip, clips should be coded. It should be better if you don't know the resistors being used too (double blind) but that is difficult to achieve. If I were you (but I am not) I'd pre-record some samples and play them back through an actual modified and unmodified version of the same amp.

Results will be interesting in far more than one way. Will we pick the amp with the NOS parts as the most genuine Dumble clone? Will we prefer NOS over say Xicon?

If you need funds for parts, let me know. I'd be happy to help.
When you do, check this topic: https://ampgarage.com/forum/view ... ilit=Dale
beasleybodyshop
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Re: Non-NOS component choices

Post by beasleybodyshop »

Tony,

Yes, Two Rock and several other companies will sell you a $10,000 amp chock full of vintage parts - Just as many companies offer "premium" versions of their products to sell to people who, regardless of talent level prefer to spend money on the finer things in life :D

Yes I have played a few Dumble amps. And i was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to spend a little time checking out Keith Urban's Dumble's when they were at SIR awhile back for rehearsal. And in fact one of them didn't sound so great. Ask Jelle. Some of Dumble's voicings for particular players subjectively didn't sound all that great to my ears. Also I've had the good fortune of working with Bonnie Raitt and got to check out I guess in order to drive the Ferrari, I need to be Mario Andretti. But there is only one of him so I guess none of us will ever understand :D

Yes, I have built several Dumble replicas, and at least 3 or 4 of those with real parts. Q line resistors, real vintage date code RN65s, Mepco electra blue Metal films. Draloric LCAs, vintage 6PS and 715/716s etc etc etc, solid core wire, tandy coax, and emulating layouts from known classic amps. Yes if you use the OG parts you can almost build it by numbers and chances of it turning out great are almost guaranteed. I would argue easier than trying to do it with modern parts because the recipe is time tested. And I don't doubt for a second that the *vintage correct* parts work. My original comment is that the newer boutique manufacturers can and are building D style amps that sound as good as the vintage ones. And you don't even have to take my opinion on that - Look at all the Dumble players people here put on a pedestal playing non dumble amps now - Santana, LC, etc etc. I will never be on their level as a musician but if the non OG, modern interpretation is good enough for the gods then I suppose I shall demean myself to something less than the original.

Your interpretation of my "playing with the layout" comment is a misunderstanding - And if my comment came out flippant I do apologize it was not my intention, I'll clarify here. You know the layout of components plays a role - to quote the Dumble interview:

"Can you "Dumble-ize" a Fender amp to the point that it shares the Dumble philosophy and sound, or would it be a compromise?

It's a compromise. The actual physical construction of the Fender limits what can be done. In fact, after the last Steel-String Singer mod I did to David Lindley's amps, he no longer uses the Fender Bassman I Dumbleized for him. He wanted this luscious transparency and response--like floating in white clouds--and I came up with special circuitry. I can use a Fender chassis, but you have to rip everything off of it, fill in all the holes, and re-drill it. They're just a little bit too squashed. A distance of half a centimeter makes a big difference in the way something sounds. It's a science involved with what's called circuit constants."


...said in classic Dumble style. Some truth, some flourish. Lead dress in the first few stages is pretty critical to getting the most out of a dumble amp no? If you look at gut shots of any number of dumble amps you'll see similar lead dress between the plate and cathodes of most of the gain stages. I know you know this - You have been around awhile and you've built any number good sounding D style amps. It's part of the recipe. But like a recipe, you can mix and match things and if you know good technique, you can use unorthodox ingredients to achieve the same result. Ferrari used to use large wooden forms to shape the aluminum body panels on their early cars. And used to use predominantly sand casted aluminum parts for the engine. Now it's more CNC milling than sand casting, and they use modern machines to press and form the sheet metal. Guess they should go back to the old ways of doing things. Guess they should go back to the way Enzo did it.

Tony, I do not mean any disrespect - Anyone who has spent 10 minutes here knows you have built fantastic dumble style amps. I've often wanted to gut an old musicman myself and do a version of the tan super high plate voltage Dumble you built awhile back. But to argue that "it doesn't sound like a real dumble" because "you've never played a real dumble amp" [that's a little presumptuous, I have] or "you cant make it sound/feel like a real dumble without OG parts [subjective] is wrong. Boutique amp guys who are too busy making amps to haunt the halls of TAG are doing this, and pretty successfully.

There can only be one Tag Skinner. And we all know Tag Knows Tone. LOL.
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