ceriatone releasing an SSS apparently

[CHIP]

Erwin, That being the case, what effect on timbre would adjusting LNFB values have?
#124 has .047 uf with two 10M on each lead.
Has anyone increased or decreased these values, and what effect was noticed when you did?

[erwin_ve]

Erwin, That being the case, what effect on timbre would adjusting LNFB values have?
#124 has .047 uf with two 10M on each lead.
Has anyone increased or decreased these values, and what effect was noticed when you did?

You can search for Glasman posts on TAG. He's done some extensive testing on the LNFB subject . I can only come up with this, it's related:
https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... &postorder But he's posted more and specific on the effects of LNFB.

[vibratoking]

Now "timbre" is IMO the topic at The Amp Garage. So the threads related to the "timbre" topic are countless here. The general question: How can I make my amp to sound like Dumble ODS #xyz, or like the sound I hear in my head etc. This is IMO the question: How can I achieve a certain kind of "timbre"?

But if some member here asks one of these countless timbre related questions like:

"How can I get rid of some 'sharpness' in the timbre of my amp?"

the common answer is – at least in my subjective perception - to send certain frequencies to ground or to adjust the content of harmonics and overtones etc.

But right now I really can't remember one single example of an answer to such a kind of question like:

"If you want to get rid of some 'sharpness' in the timbre of your amp, then try to change its 'attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients'."

Timbre is a nice word that attempts to put the characteristics of a signal under one umbrella. At least that is how I percieve it is used in that Wiki link. Ayone who has seriously studied signal processing and electronics understands the effects of rise time, fall time, slew rate, etc (all time domain characteristics) and the frequency domain characteristics...on the sound of a signal. With all due respect, this is fairly common knowledge in 2012.

I would ask that you please spend some time studying, at least, Fourier analysis. You really can't fully understand a tube amp circuit without it. You will come to understand that time and frequency are inextricably linked. Per your example of sending certain frequencies to ground. I believe that you are thinking of this only in terms of frequency, but are ignoring the effect that this has on the time domain response. Most commonly, higher frequencies are sent to ground via a shunt capacitor. In this case, there is less high frequency content from a spectrum point of view. But that cap forms a time constant with all related impedances in the circuit and has an absolute effect on the time domain response. This is changing the timbre even though the guy that added that cap may not realize it. With all due respect, I would suggest that you search out some information in order to understand that when you talk about the frequency domain, you are also simultaneously, perhaps indirectly, talking about time doman. This is the fundamental basis of timbre IMO. Edited the previous sentence to add the words the fundamental basis of.

Here is a link to one of MANY Java applets on the subject.

http://www.chem.uoa.gr/applets/AppletFo ... Anal2.html

A quick Google search will find perhaps hundreds of these applets. Note that Fourier analysis is mathematical. Don't let the math stop you from understanding the concept. The concept should be your main focus if you are interested in tube amps. The math allows a deeper understanding, but is not necessary for tube amp purposes.

[Structo]

Having grown up playing violin in an orchestra setting the word "timbre" was used quite a bit.

In our setting it could describe the "timbre" of one instrument or the whole orchestra as a unit.

To my mind it encompasses the tone (including harmonics), dynamics and character of the instrument.

It is what sets one instrument apart from another.

In our world of electric guitars and amps, I would say timbre is the guitar and amp together as one unit that results in the timbre we hear.

That's my 2 cents.

[vibratoking]

We can discuss what timbre means ad infinitum, but that discussion will never lead to a fundamental understanding of what makes a tube amp sound the way it does. Isn't that the goal? IMO, it is very helpful to have a basic understanding of signal processing and circuit theory. This can help an amp builder to focus more closely on 'real' problems rather than just shooting in the dark on the bench and the crossing of fingers that a certain change will actually result in something useful. Fundamental knowledge is key to good design and understanding IMO. Timbre is not a fundamental characteristic. Instead, it is the superposition of many different fundamental characteristics that result in what is called timbre.

Sorry, this has completely derailed and now I will get off my soapbox. Now where is it that HAD connected any of the step filters and what types and values of components were used in any of those filters?

[Max]

I believe that you are thinking of this only in terms of frequency, but are ignoring the effect that this has on the time domain response.

No, I don't think so - I'm sorry that I didn't express myself clear enough concerning this. What I think is, that "the effect that this has on the time domain response" is indeed ignored in at least many of the timbre related discussions at The Amp Garage.

This is changing the timbre even though the guy that added that cap may not realize it.

Indeed, this is my opinion. And because of this IMO it would be of an advantage, if "the guy that added that cap" would "realize it".

Another example:

My personal impression is, that in some discussions here at The Amp Garage people seem to think, that e.g. changing the design of the power supply will only have an effect on the time domain. But because, as you explained, "time and frequency are inextricably linked" every change of the design of the power supply will affect the frequency domain, too, and will result in a different timbre.

this is fairly common knowledge in 2012.

As I already wrote in my last post, my personal perception of the timbre related dicussions at The Amp Garage may be completely wrong and just a personal prejudice based on my lack of understanding of the content of these discussions because of my lack of technical knowledge.

So if all here are fully aware, that changing the "attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients" is an appropriate way to change the timbre of their amps, because "this is fairly common knowledge in 2012", then please excuse me and just forget my posts concerning this topic.

Cheers,

Max

[vibratoking]

Max, thank you for the thoughtful discussion. For me, it is interesting and thought provoking.

So if all here are fully aware, that changing the "attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients" is an appropriate way to change the timbre of their amps, because "this is fairly common knowledge in 2012", then please excuse me and just forget my posts concerning this topic.

I am in no position to say that all here are fully aware of these things. I can only speakk for myself and state that I am always thinking in this way. Further, I did not intend to put you in the position of excusing yourself. It is a good topic and certainly does not deserve to be forgotten. I am just trying to point out that that some of us are already thinking along these lines. Thank you again.

[Max]

It is a good topic and certainly does not deserve to be forgotten.

I completely agree with you. We just did have a misunderstanding concerning my opinion.

IMO we are right in the middle here of such a timbre related discussion:

Some here apparantly perceive the timbre of SSS #004 e.g. to be rather different from the timbre of the clean channel of an ODR. But others here believe, that in a technical sense such kind of SSS without a separate driver tube (at least I don't see a separate driver tube on the #004 pictures) is just the clean channel of an ODR with an additional filter circuit, that isn't that important for the typical timbre of a SSS.

So what is discussed in this thread are IMO questions like these:

Which of the technical details of the circuit of #004 might be responsable for the fact, that at least some members here seem to perceive the timbre of SSS #004 as being rather different from the timbre of the clean channel of an ODR?

Is there perhaps something typical in the timbre of different SSSs and Dumblelands - despite of the technical differences between them - in a manner, that sets them all apart from the clean sound of the ODS/R family?

If there should be something typical in the timbre of SSSs and Dumblelands, that these have in common, despite of the technical differences between them, which of their technical parameters could be the ones, that are responsable for such a possible typical SSS and/or Dumbleland timbre?

And IMO it's of some importance for such a kind of discussion, to keep in mind, that what vibratoking explained "does not deserve to be forgotten" .

A nice day to all here,

Max

[vibratoking]

Which of the technical details of the circuit of #004 might be responsable for the fact, that at least some members here seem to perceive the timbre of SSS #004 as being rather different from the timbre of the clean channel of an ODR?

Good question! I am wondering which of the technical details might be responsible for differences in timbre as well. I would love to investigate that, but since I don't have access to any of the real details of a SSS, or its family, I cannot.