EL34s for a Dumble. What is the smoothest and sweetest NOS?

[Tag]

I can think of at least 3 things that surely "age" in a tube amp:

- ceramic caps (excluding class 1)
- electrolytic caps
- tubes

With more than 20 years since it has been built the cathode bypass and power supply electrolytic caps are entering their "end of life" period -> usually they loose more than 10% of their nominal capacitance so now there should be a subtle but audible difference between new and "aged".

But I guess that retubing your amp will have the greatest impact on how it sounds -> maybe it will loose all it's magic...

It has new Russian tubes in it, which is why I am looking for better ones. Maybe the Russians will sound better, who knows? here is another example. I just sold a killer, dead mint 1966 Pro reverb. It was DEAD stock until a few months ago when the caps finally went. Andy Fuchs recapped it, and after the cap jonb, the amp sounded just like it did slightly before the caps went. Now we are talking a 33 year old amp that was played and played. Now I had it A/Bd with my HR deville, which is quite a different amp. Still, the tones were so similar, you could pretty much fool anyone. Setting both amps up for their best tones and posting blind clips on the TGP, it was pretty much split down the middle as far as liking each tone. Thats the same way it was here in the room. I actually sold the Pro and kept the Deville, because with the 4 /10s, it had a slightly better clean tone and feel IMO. very very close though.

[Tag]

Sums it all up rather nicely I think and thats why were doing the building and not TAG.

Of course age plays a part on the amps tone and also the age/quality of the guitar one is playing too.

Tag is either immature or oblivious.

Ah! I see you are one who probably thinks vintage guitars always sound better. I would not want one of your amps. I can hear it now!! "Of course my amp does not sound as good as your other amp!!! You have to wait 20 years for that"..HAHAHAHA!! NOT!!

We will see when this clone gets built. Clips will reveal all!

[Funkalicousgroove]

If you can't hear the difference between 30 year old filter caps and brand new ones perhaps a call to the Belltone rep in your area may be in order?

That's kind of like saying that a nice hand crafted single malt scotch tastes just like the big plastic bottle of Clan McGregor's!

[Tag]

If you can't hear the difference between 30 year old filter caps and brand new ones perhaps a call to the Belltone rep in your area may be in order?

That's kind of like saying that a nice hand crafted single malt scotch tastes just like the big plastic bottle of Clan McGregor's!

I may have some clips around of before and after. We can see how accurate YOUR hearing is! I will search.

[Funkalicousgroove]

The other side of that coin is that we'll see how good YOUR recording technique is! it's tough to capture artifact and nuiance on recordings

[JimiB]

That's kind of like saying that a nice hand crafted single malt scotch tastes just like the big plastic bottle of Clan McGregor's!

I agree Funk - The Clan McGregor wins every time
I mix it one part scotch 5 parts cola - nuiance and subtlety right!
ROFLMAO - maybe I'm just jelous of the old filter caps - its gotta be that

[talbany]

Tag
Here is some good advice.. If you can't hear or feel the difference or believe there is no difference between a new amp and one 25 years old you may want to rethink the idea of working with a builder to do a dead on copy of one of the most dynamic amps ever made..If your compairing your Dumble to your Deville and think those amps have anything in common a far as aging goes then this should be your 2nd clue...If your trying to explain the anomolies associated with the aging of an amp and your responce is somewhere I have a old clip of the amp I'll send you... to me is like here's your sign..

Here is your 3rd sign..

It has new Russian tubes in it, which is why I am looking for better ones. Maybe the Russians will sound better, who knows?

Here is your final sign Tag,,
To come here and say outright some of the builders here have it wrong in your ears is not very classy and shows the type of person you are... really un COOL!!... Why would someone do this..
Really good luck with your build and if it works out well for you go post it over on The Gear Page because I doubt the people over here really care anymore.. .. Bye Bye!!

Tony

[dartanion]

Just a couple of simple questions and comments for Tag.

1. How many amps have you modified or built?
2. How many of those amps were Dumble circuits?
3. How many Dumbles have you studied schematically?
4. Do you know how to read a tube datasheet and know what is means?
5. Do you know the common lead colors used on transformers?
6. What temp do you prefer to set your soldering iron at?
7. Turrets? Eyelets? or PTP?

It doesn't sound to me like you know how a tube amp even works, and this makes you a blowhard on a builders forum. Read the page header "The Amp Garage: A tube amp builder's community". And before you go about insulting the collective intelligence here, maybe you should learn a bit about tube amps before you spout off. You would be much more convincing if you could speak our language.

If you are truly here to learn about building amps, then welcome aboard! Glad to have ya!

If you are here to brag about your $55K amp, talk smack to builders, and generally mess with folks, then please take your antics elsewhere.

Oh, and let me guess. Could it be Two Rock that you are allowing to clone your amp? Last I remember, you proclaimed the Emerald Pro as the best clone? Is that not true anymore or were your ears deceiving you?

[ToneMerc]

That's Wonderful news, I have a couple of friends that Paid Alexander for amps years ago and have yet to recieve them, I'll be sure to send them to pay a visit!!

I know the feeling.........Express 180 build, 2x12 cab, roadcases for both("I will not ship without the cases") and $5700 paid upfront via cashiers check.

Oh, by the way that was the Fall of 89'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kharma is cruel B@$%h though.


TM

[Tag]

The other side of that coin is that we'll see how good YOUR recording technique is! it's tough to capture artifact and nuiance on recordings

Found the clips! However, I agree with you in part, because the early ones were done with my Roland recorder, a Strat and PRS. The newer with my 335 and Boss BR600. I agree there is no way to tell what is what under those circumstances.

[Tag]

Tag

Here is some good advice.. If you can't hear or feel the difference or believe there is no difference between a new amp and one 25 years old you may want to rethink the idea of working with a builder to do a dead on copy of one of the most dynamic amps ever made.

Again you are putting words in my mouth. I said if the amp is serviced regularly, the differences are slight, and far over rated. It is an excuse I have heard when Dumble tone or other clone misses its target by a long shot.

.

If your compairing your Dumble to your Deville and think those amps have anything in common a far as aging goes

I would argue with the speakers as part of the combo in the Deville, it could show even more signs of aging. In any case, I have had many amps for many years, and AGAIN, with proper maintenance, the signs of aging are slight.

If your trying to explain the anomolies associated with the aging of an amp and your responce is somewhere I have a old clip of the amp I'll send you... to me is like here's your sign..

I think the sign is you are taking what I say to its farthest extreme, and acting like thast what I am saying. The reality is you know thats not what I am saying, and you know what i am saying is coreect, and its bugging you.

Here is your 3rd sign..
It has new Russian tubes in it, which is why I am looking for better ones. Maybe the Russians will sound better, who knows?

Not sure what you are saying here, but I think there is a possibilty the Russian tubes may sound better. I will not know until I try.

Here is your final sign Tag,,
To come here and say outright some of the builders here have it wrong in your ears is not very classy and shows the type of person you are...

Yes it does...honest. And I will go farther, ALL of the builders whos amps I have tried have missed the mark.

really un COOL!!... Why would someone do this..

Because I am hoping someone gets it dead on. Thats why.

Really good luck with your build and if it works out well for you go post it over on The Gear Page because I doubt the people over here really care anymore.. .. Bye Bye!!

I will post direct A/B clips EVERYWHERE, and give MAJOR kudos to the builder IF he can do it.

[Tag]

Just a couple of simple questions and comments for Tag.

1. How many amps have you modified or built?
2. How many of those amps were Dumble circuits?
3. How many Dumbles have you studied schematically?
4. Do you know how to read a tube datasheet and know what is means?
5. Do you know the common lead colors used on transformers?
6. What temp do you prefer to set your soldering iron at?
7. Turrets? Eyelets? or PTP?

It doesn't sound to me like you know how a tube amp even works, and this makes you a blowhard on a builders forum. Read the page header "The Amp Garage: A tube amp builder's community". And before you go about insulting the collective intelligence here, maybe you should learn a bit about tube amps before you spout off. You would be much more convincing if you could speak our language.

If you are truly here to learn about building amps, then welcome aboard! Glad to have ya!

If you are here to brag about your $55K amp, talk smack to builders, and generally mess with folks, then please take your antics elsewhere.

Oh, and let me guess. Could it be Two Rock that you are allowing to clone your amp? Last I remember, you proclaimed the Emerald Pro as the best clone? Is that not true anymore or were your ears deceiving you?

Here to learn, AND share some info I get on how to get these things RIGHT. (If its possible)
TwoRock E.Pro?? Here, listen for yourself. DAMN close!! Emmy up first, then the Dumble. DAMN close!!! Bill knew this shit inside and out 10 years ago!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeIaIcbbwf0

VERY CLOSE VERY CLOSE!!

[dreric]

Will a little potty mouth lock this thread also?

[Guitarman18]

I really don't get this, why are we even discussing this?

Tag, I don't mean any disrespect but, you say that in your opinion, none of the other D'clone builders have got it right, and yet, I suspect Robben and Carlton would have to disagree. They have both gone with Bludo's and parked their Dumbles. These are two of the most eminent Dumble tone creators. At the end of this amp project (w/ TR?), the 'Tag seal of approval' is not really going to help an amp company to sell any more product.

I can't help thinking that to some extent you are being 'played'. As a real deal Dumble owner, you are financing their research for free. No wonder they are willing to spend some time with you, I would do the same!

You also say that your EL34 amp is the best of the Dumbles you have come across, which highlights the fact that no two HAD builds were the same. Could it be that the clones you have listened to, are identical to a HAD amp that just didn't quite do it for you?

It is true, your amp does sound great, but I have heard real deal clips that sound quite ordinary. So I think it is unfair to say that HAD-260 points/cloners- nil.

For example;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xox5eHFm56k&NR=1

Tone is such a subjective thing that I don't think any one of us has the credentials to say, this is right, that is wrong!

Anyway, I have a date with a new soldering iron, this could be a long night!

Cheers,

Paul.

[Zippy]

Here is your final sign Tag,,
To come here and say outright some of the builders here have it wrong in your ears is not very classy and shows the type of person you are...

Yes it does...honest. And I will go farther, ALL of the builders whos amps I have tried have missed the mark.

Really good luck with your build and if it works out well for you go post it over on The Gear Page because I doubt the people over here really care anymore.. .. Bye Bye!!

I will post direct A/B clips EVERYWHERE, and give MAJOR kudos to the builder IF he can do it.

If you are the one responsible for giving the builder feedback on the build and he fails to get the tone you are looking for, then you are most likely the weak link in the signal chain. Can't blame the builder for your lack of experience in wringing out the tweaks. Complaining is not constructive feedback.

That's your most endearing characteristic, Tag, you are so willing to help other people see their failures and so oblivious to your own.