ODSR #13 Hand drawn layout by H.A.D

[talbany]

... your typical SSS (no trem) Reverb with Tweed mixer (4 tubes) and P.I Driver would be 8 total.

Hi Tony,

why do you think so? I ask, because AFAIK all Dumble amps with 8 nine-pin tubes have a trem circuit?

All the best,

Max

Your right Max that should say "with Trem" Typo corrected good catch.

BTW.Here is a shot of my #002 7 total (one under the board) no trem

DSCF5846.JPG

Tony

[Max]

... Mixing is done at the cathode end or low impedance mixer. This generally requires an extra tube so your typical SSS (with trem) Reverb with Tweed mixer (4 tubes) and P.I Driver would be 8 total.

#001 Kaiser amp 8 tubes w/driver Mixer sec ...

... #004 Kaiser (six preamp tubes) No Tweed No Driver

Tony, I'm still unsure, if I understand your opinion:

So - AFAIU - your opinion is (?):

SSS 100W #001 with trem and "Tweed mixer (4 tubes)" has 8 nine-pin tubes
SSS 100W #004 without trem (1 tube less), without "Tweed Mixer" (1 tube less), and without driver tube (1 tube less) has 6 nine-pin tubes.

Now IMO this makes no sense, because 8 tubes - 3 tubes = 5 tubes ?

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

... Mixing is done at the cathode end or low impedance mixer. This generally requires an extra tube so your typical SSS (with trem) Reverb with Tweed mixer (4 tubes) and P.I Driver would be 8 total.

#001 Kaiser amp 8 tubes w/driver Mixer sec ...

... #004 Kaiser (six preamp tubes) No Tweed No Driver

Tony, I'm still unsure, if I understand your opinion:

So - AFAIU - your opinion is (?):

SSS 100W #001 with trem and "Tweed mixer (4 tubes)" has 8 nine-pin tubes
SSS 100W #004 without trem (1 tube less), without "Tweed Mixer" (1 tube less), and without driver tube (1 tube less) has 6 nine-pin tubes.

Now IMO this makes no sense, because 8 tubes - 3 tubes = 5 tubes ?

All the best,

Max

Max
As you can see I did not post a schematic of #004 so I am not as familiar with this amp as the others. But I will give it a shot from memory By looking at the picture is it appears to have 6 preamp tubes. No Driver -1 and no Tweed AFAIK . So 8-2=6 as far as my math shows..Digging through my notes I did not find much in the way of Trem or the reverb mixer used in this amp,however, somewhere i seem to remember us discussing the "Magnatone" vibrato circuit Dumble incorporated into what was i believe to be an early SSS with a Black chassis..If this is the case then the missing 1 tube you speak of would be the vibrato circuit in #004. If not then it has the the Tweed mixer and no trem?

Tony

[Max]

... I did not post a schematic of #004 so I am not as familiar with this amp as the others. But I will give it a shot from memory By looking at the picture is it appears to have 6 preamp tubes. No Driver -1 and no Tweed -1. So 8-2=6 as far as my math shows. ... the missing 1 tube you speak of would be the vibrato circuit in #004.

Tony, as these pictures http://www.amparchives.com/folder/2542/ show, SSS #004 doesn't have a trem circuit. So the math is still 8 - 3 = 5. So if you really should need 4 tubes for what you call a "Tweed Mixer" (I don't doubt this, but I don't know, because I'm no electrical engineer), and if #004 really doesn't have e "Tweed Mixer" (I don't doubt this, but I don't know, because I'm no electrical engineer), I can't understand why #004 doesn't have 5 nine-pin tubes, but - as shown in these pictures - 6 nine-pin tubes. Can you (or someone else here) explain?

Do you consider the "3 tube reverb" as the one used in #002?

As I'm no electrical engineer, I'm not familiar with all the technical details of what you call a "3 tube reverb" vs. all the technical details of what you call a "Tweed Mixer (4 tubes) reverb". But of course I can see, that #002 vs. #001 has 1 tube less (#002 no trem?) and #004 vs. #002 again has 1 tube less (#004 no trem and no driver?). So you might be correct, when assuming, that the reverb circuits in #001, #002, and #004 may all be similar (at least in regard to their more general structure and tube compliment)? If so, then IMO at least the tube compliment of all three would make some consistent sense: #001 8 tubes, #002 7 tubes (no trem), #004 6 tubes (no trem and no driver). What do you (and/or others here) think about this topic and its relation to the reverb circuit of ODSR #0013?

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

Tony, as these pictures http://www.amparchives.com/folder/2542/ show, SSS #004 doesn't have a trem circuit. So the math is still 8 - 3 = 5. So if you really should need 4 tubes for what you call a "Tweed Mixer" (I don't doubt this, but I don't know, because I'm no electrical engineer), and if #004 really doesn't have e "Tweed Mixer" (I don't doubt this, but I don't know, because I'm no electrical engineer), I can't understand why #004 doesn't have 5 nine-pin tubes, but - as shown in these pictures - 6 nine-pin tubes. Can you (or someone else here) explain?

Max
Here is a schematic of the Tweed mixer #001& #002. it consists of 3 1/2 tubes to implement, you have the Reverb Mixer and Cathode follower buffer stage that consisted of 1 1/2 tubes
Then we have Reverb Driver and recovery stages which has Driver 12AT7 and a 12Ax7 =3 1/2 tubes (or I call 4 tube reverb)

sss__002_revision_6_147.bmp

The other one Aaron and I suspects was used in #004 was also used in #13

#004 is similar to this ODR #0013

called a 3 tube reverb.Here it is..As you can see you only need 3 tubes to implement it.

3 tubereverb.jpg

Here is another 3 tube design used in the Pentode amp again 3 tube reverb?

Pentode_SSS_Preamp.pdf

As I'm no electrical engineer, I'm not familiar with all the technical details of what you call a "3 tube reverb" vs. all the technical details of what you call a "Tweed Mixer (4 tubes) reverb". But of course I can see, that #002 vs. #001 has 1 tube less (#002 no trem?) and #004 vs. #002 again has 1 tube less (#004 no trem and no driver?). So you might be correct, when assuming, that the reverb circuits in #001, #002, and #004 may all be similar (at least in regard to their more general structure and tube compliment)? If so, then IMO at least the tube compliment of all three would make some consistent sense: #001 8 tubes, #002 7 tubes (no trem), #004 6 tubes (no trem and no driver). What do you (and/or others here) think about this topic and its relation to the reverb circuit of ODSR #0013?

So if we were to go off what we know so far about the design of the SSS and what we generally need to amplify or drive the circuits..add em up
1 1/2= tubes for input/tone stack recovery /filter recovery/
1= P.I
1= Driver BH-7/AT-7/AX-7
1= Tremolo or Vibrato
3 1/2= Tweed Mixer
3= Standard plate driven Mixer
Of course a verified schematic or some Hi Rez pics of #004 would help positively verify it's reverb type
Does this Help?
BTW.If someone sees something i missed shout it out

An ODS Guy

[talbany]

I will add in the last one that is suspected to be the one used in the High Plains Drifter. ( a #005 clone.)
It has a 2 tube reverb similar to Fender style (Driver/Recovery amp) Here is the Schematic and Layout..
I am not as familiar with this amp so don't ask

Tony

[Max]

1 1/2= tubes for input/tone stack recovery /filter recovery/
1= P.I.
3 1/2= Tweed Mixer

Tony, 1 1/2 + 1 + 3 1/2 = 6 nine-pin tubes, just like the 6 in SSS #004: http://www.amparchives.com/folder/2542/

So why did you write: " ... SSS #004 Kaiser (six preamp tubes) No Tweed ..."

Why do you assume, that 1/2 tube of the 6 nine-pin tubes in #004 is left without a function? Or do I misunderstand you?

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

1 1/2= tubes for input/tone stack recovery /filter recovery/
1= P.I.
3 1/2= Tweed Mixer

Tony, 1 1/2 + 1 + 3 1/2 = 6 nine-pin tubes, just like the 6 in SSS #004: http://www.amparchives.com/folder/2542/

So why did you write: " ... SSS #004 Kaiser (six preamp tubes) No Tweed ..."

Why do you assume, that 1/2 tube of the 6 nine-pin tubes in #004 is left without a function? Or do I misunderstand you?

All the best,

Max

Max
No you assumed right. Back at the time when all these pics surfaced some of us here on the garage couldn't verify the tweed on the pics we were looking at (this is what my notes tell me at the time) Could we be wrong sure! there were no Hi-Rez shots or accurate schematics of the amp available and that was a long time ago. So I'll flip it on you and do you know or find out the type reverb that was in #004 and prove me wrong so I can update my notes?..I hope!

Tony

[Max]

Back at the time when all these pics surfaced some of us here on the garage couldn't verify the tweed on the pics we were looking at (this is what my notes tell me at the time) Could we be wrong sure! there were no Hi-Rez shots or accurate schematics of the amp available and that was a long time ago. So I'll flip it on you and do you know or find out the type reverb that was in #004 and prove me wrong so I can update my notes?

Tony, I'm sorry, but I'm not able to derive schematics from pictures.

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

Back at the time when all these pics surfaced some of us here on the garage couldn't verify the tweed on the pics we were looking at (this is what my notes tell me at the time) Could we be wrong sure! there were no Hi-Rez shots or accurate schematics of the amp available and that was a long time ago. So I'll flip it on you and do you know or find out the type reverb that was in #004 and prove me wrong so I can update my notes?

Tony, I'm sorry, but I'm not able to derive schematics from pictures.

All the best,

Max

Here's how you do it

SSS_#4_GUTS-1.jpg

Tony
Thanks for the help!

[Aaron]

Thanks Tony!
Seeing this picture sent me back huddled in a corner

Aaron

[talbany]

Thanks Tony!
Seeing this picture sent me back huddled in a corner

Aaron

It's why I wear glasses now I am convinced!

[Max]

It's why I wear glasses now I am convinced!

Tony, it's not bad vision, why I can't derive schematics from pictures, but my very limited knowledge in regard to electronics and electrophysics etc.

... The other one Aaron and I suspects was used ... in #13 ... called a 3 tube reverb. ...

IMO such a "3 tube reverb" might make sense in ODSR #0013: 1 tube for input and tonestack recovery, 1 tube for OD, 1 tube for PI = 3 out of 6. So only 3 are left for the reverb and not the 3 1/2 needed for what you call a "Tweed mixer reverb".

BTW: The number (but not the exact types) of nine-pin tubes, visible in the schematic and layout of SSS #005 you posted, is the same number (5) as the one published in the datasheet for the SSS150W by A. Dumble:

TUBE COMPLEMENT
4 x 7025 high-mu twin triodes
1 x 5751 high-mu twin triode
4 x 6550A beam power tubes

All the best,

Max

[talbany]

BTW: The number (but not the exact types) of nine-pin tubes, visible in the schematic and layout of SSS #005 you posted, is the same number (5) as the one published in the datasheet for the SSS150W by A. Dumble:

TUBE COMPLEMENT
4 x 7025 high-mu twin triodes
1 x 5751 high-mu twin triode
4 x 6550A beam power tubes

I thought Brandons H.P.D was a direct copy of #005

HPD Gutshot 1.JPG

Dumble mixed the reverb in after the filters and before the Filter recovery gain stage to help amplify both the filters and reverb.
1 Tank Driver- 12AT.. 1 half of a 5751 was used as a tank recovery and the other half used for the recovery gain stage for the mixer.(Pretty slick)
Another Ax used as input and TS recovery, P.I and finally Driver=5
The reverb would sound more Fender-ish
So if one liked the sound of the reverb from a Fender Twin and wanted a very clean Skyliner sound. fairly easy to build #005 would be a good choice..It would be interesting to compare one with say a Wonderland


Going through some more old files i ran into this interview with Lowell George Guitar player magazine talking about his 2nd Generation ODSR ...Enjoy

What kind of amplification have you been using ?
I'm using a custom-made Howard Dumble amp which is the best one that I've ever played through - it's like a Fender made right. If you want a screaming Twin sound but don't want it too loud, you can do it. That amp has an overdrive section, somewhat similar to that of the Music Man amp. With the reverb on a Fender you have only two choices: on or off. But this reverb has a send and return so you can vary the amount of each. the spring inside the Fender reverb unit is a joke, and when you send the same amount as the input of the guitar signal, you're asking for it - everyone sounds like the Ventures. The way around it is by having separate controls, which the Dumble amp has. It costs about the same as a new Marshall with four 10" speakers in the bayonet cabinet. I've always liked that Marshall cabinet sound because it really projects. And it still has some nice lows. the Dumble amp has a switch so you can activate the overdrive section during a solo without having to turn up the amp or guitar volume up. I like it a lot, it's the best amp I've ever played through.

I need to stop going through these old drives
Tony

[Max]

I thought Brandons H.P.D was a direct copy of #005 ...

Tony, in regard to the schematic and perhaps some more general layout specs: Maybe. In regard to the parts used in the original #005: IMO very, very unlikely.

BTW: AFAIR up to now I've never seen in person or on pictures a real 1:1 "direct copy" of any Dumble amp at all. And from an economic point of view I wouldn't be very surprised, if building an exact "direct copy" of any Dumble amp today might be even more expensive (valuing building time in a way some expert tech would value his time for chasing down all the original parts and then building a "direct copy") than buying the original.

All the best,

Max