ceriatone releasing an SSS apparently

[musicmaddness2011]

Hey Max,

Yes im sure (since i copied and pasted haha) that he said that here - https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... ght=#57018

thanks,
mm.

[talbany]

Max
You are absolutely correct.. The filter recovery stage plays a crucial role.. The passive filter setup is to me still considered an R C tone stack that carries considerable losses associated with it.. These gain losses must be recovered just like the losses associated with the skyliner/ classic stack etc..

Tony

[vibratoking]

The passive filter setup is to me still considered an R C tone stack that carries considerable losses associated with it..

Is the filter setup really RC or does it have inductors? Yes, any passive filter has losses.

Brandon does indeed say after REVERB recovery...That seems like an odd place for it, but what do I know?

Anyone care to elaborate with facts or well reasoned arguments?

[boldaslove6789]

The passive filter setup is to me still considered an R C tone stack that carries considerable losses associated with it..

Is the filter setup really RC or does it have inductors? Yes, any passive filter has losses.

Brandon does indeed say after REVERB recovery...That seems like an odd place for it, but what do I know?

Anyone care to elaborate with facts or well reasoned arguments?

Some used inductors some didn't. AFAIK from the schems and gut shots I've seen at least the first 4 SSS used and Inductor in the Filter section.

[vibratoking]

Some used inductors some didn't. AFAIK from the schems and gut shots I've seen at least the first 4 SSS used and Inductor in the Filter section.

Thanks Greg. I'll have to take a much closer look at the layouts that are available to me and see what is there.

Also, there is a discrepancy from Funk. Here is his post where he states the following:

The Hi-Lo filters are like tone controls after the EQ Recovery stage.

https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=45

[talbany]

Is the filter setup really RC or does it have inductors?

Vibro ..Should have clarified!!
If the circuit does have an inductor then it becomes an RCL Filter Network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit


- Inductor, capacitors and resistors work together in an EQ network to shape tone.This sets up the resonance filter..
- Some settings of "high step" are low pass, some high pass.
- all settings of "low step" are low pass"
The adjustable trim pot feeding the inductor has these effects:
1) changes gain and by this the harmonics produced by V2 and by this the color of the tone and the sustain etc..
2) changes the Q-factor of the "resonance filter"
3) changes the corner or cutoff frequencies
4) changes the transient response time of the filter overall tone and sustain
5) changes to "independent" the high step and low step filters are in their influence on tone
6) changes the whole network more into the direction of a second order filter or into the direction of a first order filter

BTW.. Ampeg has been using RCL circuits (rocker switches) in the SVT and other amps for years..So has boogie in some of there early Graphic EQ's..Nothing new!!

Tony

[wjdunham]

Is the filter setup really RC or does it have inductors?

Vibro ..Should have clarified!!
If the circuit does have an inductor then it becomes an RCL Filter Network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC_circuit


- Inductor, capacitors and resistors work together in an EQ network to shape tone.This sets up the resonance filter..
- Some settings of "high step" are low pass, some high pass.
- all settings of "low step" are low pass"
The adjustable trim pot feeding the inductor has these effects:
1) changes gain and by this the harmonics produced by V2 and by this the color of the tone and the sustain etc..
2) changes the Q-factor of the "resonance filter"
3) changes the corner or cutoff frequencies
4) changes the transient response time of the filter overall tone and sustain
5) changes to "independent" the high step and low step filters are in their influence on tone
6) changes the whole network more into the direction of a second order filter or into the direction of a first order filter

BTW.. Ampeg has been using RCL circuits (rocker switches) in the SVT and other amps for years..So has boogie in some of there early Graphic EQ's..Nothing new!!

Tony

Hi Tony, minor note on terminology here - with an inductor in the grid it is possible to get both a high frequency boost and a cut- in the case of boost, a resonance if you will. Some settings of the high filter have this boost, some won't, so when we say "some settings are high pass, some are low pass", I think it should read "some settings give a high frequency boost, some a high frequency cut". This resonance will have an interesting effect on the tone/feel of the highs for sure. The Two Rocks have adjustable trimmer with the inductor, most SSS don't seem to have one, just a fixed RC network.
Bill

[Max]

Brandon does indeed say after REVERB recovery...That seems like an odd place for it, but what do I know? Anyone care to elaborate with facts or well reasoned arguments?

In the same thread Brandon posted: "That's SSS #002 I believe it's a 100W instead of a 150W" https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?p=55982#55982

So I doubt, that Brandon’s statement was based on personal experience or detailed pictures: Someone who is familiar with an amp – at least from looking at some pictures - and knows its circuit details will IMO know if its a 100W or 150W amp.

And IMO one should take into account, too, that this thread is from 2008, a time when AFAIK Brandon still was collecting info concerning the different SSS versions. I doubt that he would repeat this statement today.

To perhaps get an even better impression concerning how different the circuits of different members of the Dumleland /SSS family are, you could perhaps go through this procedure:

Perhaps you could start by reading this data sheet of the 100W version of the SSS:

The "Steel String Singer" is designed to deliver the guitar sound necessary to fill stadiums and large halls. The power ability and tone circuitry work together to produce volume and tone of very exciting dimensions. This amplifier provides the player with a huge, clean sound that is enriched with a warm, singing quality.

SPECIFICATIONS
Power Output: 100 watts true power
Output Impedance: 4 ohms and 8 ohms switchable
Input Impedance: NOR = 1M ohm, and FET= 3.3M ohms

TUBE COMPLIMENT
4 x 7025 high-mu twin triodes
1 x 5751 high-mu twin triode
4 x 6L6 power tubes

CONTROLS AND EQ SWITCHES
Preamp Controls: volume, treble, middle, and bass
Preamp Switches: bright, deep, rock/jazz, hi step filter & low step filter
Reverb Contoler: Send, and return levels
Master Section: master volume, and presence

SIGNAL CONNECTIONS
Inputs: NOR, and FET
Access Ports: preamp out, and power amp input (2.5V, 500k ohms)
Outputs: main speaker, and extension speaker

POWER SWITCHES
A.C. mains on/off
A.C. mains grounding
operate/standby

Then you could perhaps think about the possible functions of all these tubes in the circuit of a SSS - taking into account the possible functions of the tubes you find in the data sheet of a Dumbleland 300SL, that has exactly the same features as every SSS I know of (FET input, reverb with send and return controls, high filter and low filter):

"DUMBLE LAND 300SL"

SPECIFICATIONS
Power Output: 300 watts true power
Output Impedance: 2 or 4 ohms
Input Impedance: NOR = 1M ohm, and FET = 3.3M ohms

TUBE COMPLIMENT
2 x 7025 high-mu twin triodes
1 x 5751 high-mu twin triodes
1 X 12AU7
2 x 12BH7
6 x 6550A beam power

CONTROLS AND EQ SWITCHES
Preamp Controls: volume, treble, middle, and bass
Preamp Switches: bright, deep, rock/jazz, and preamp boost
Filter: Hi and Low step filter
Reverb Contoler: Send, and return levels
Master Section: master volume, and presence

SIGNAL CONNECTIONS
Inputs: NOR, and FET
Access Ports: preamp out, and power amp input (2.5V, 500k ohms)
Outputs: main speaker, and extension speaker

POWER SWITCHES
A.C. mains on/off
A.C. mains grounding
operate/standby
　
ADJUSTMENTS
BIAS ADJUST
　
REMOTE SWITCHING
Reverb on/off

Then you could perhaps look at the pictures of Dumbleland Special #009 https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.ph ... 205#129205

And then you could perhaps think about the possible function of the tubes you see on these pictures of Dumbleland #009 - taking into account the different features and power amps of a Dumbleland Special 150W and a Dumblelland 300SL

Now you could perhaps count the number of tubes you find on pictures of the inside of different SSSs, like on this inside picture of #004 (IMO its quality is good enough to count tubes), and compare your results with the number of tubes given in these SSS and Dumbleland 300SL data sheets and shown on the pictures of Dumbleland Special #009.

Then you could perhaps think about possible reasons for all the differences you might detect when going through this procedure.

BTW:
What is IMO often overlooked in discussions like this concerning the differences between the timbres of different guitar amps, is the fact, that AFAIK the human hearing system perceives exactly the same frequency spectrum with exactly the same harmonic content as a rather different timbre, if this frequency spectrum is presented to the human hearing system in the context of different dynamic structures.

So the way an amplifier processes the dynamic structure of the signal present at its input will IMO have a large impact on the way our hearing systems will perceive its timbre. So IMO when discussing possible reasons for timbre differences one should think about all the circuit details of an amplifier, that have an influence on the way it processes dynamics, as a most important part of its EQ section.

Discussions like this IMO often concentrate too much on the subject how different circuit details affect the harmonic structure of the signal (amount of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics in the harmonic content etc.), because people think, that the dynamic structure does more or less only affect the "feel", "response" and "playing comfort" etc. of an amplifier. And IMO this approach doesn’t take into account, that the human hearing system perceives a different dynamic structure as a different kind of timbre, too.

Cheers,

Max

[boldaslove6789]

Brandon does indeed say after REVERB recovery...That seems like an odd place for it, but what do I know? Anyone care to elaborate with facts or well reasoned arguments?

In the same thread Brandon posted: "That's SSS #002 I believe it's a 100W instead of a 150W" https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?p=55982#55982

So I doubt, that Brandon’s statement was based on personal experience or detailed pictures: Someone who is familiar with an amp – at least from looking at some pictures - and knows its circuit details will IMO know if its a 100W or 150W amp.


Max

Max, I can't find the exact quote but Brandon has stated on numerous occasions the following info regarding John Mayers #2 SSS:

Originally built for Jackson Brown
Sold to the 2nd Owner in Japan
Then sold to the 3rd owner John Mayer

Has Fender Twin Reverb Pwr and Output trafo's
Is 100w with 4x6L6's

AFAIK from posts on TAG and TGP, Brandon was given detailed pictures and schematic's of the amp before it was sold to John Mayer from the 2nd Owner from Japan. With that said it's safe to say that the above are facts regarding the #2 SSS.

[Max]

Originally built for Jackson Brown
Sold to the 2nd Owner in Japan
Then sold to the 3rd owner John Mayer
Has Fender Twin Reverb Pwr and Output trafo's
Is 100w with 4x6L6's

With that said it's safe to say that the above are facts regarding the #2 SSS.

Indeed, this is IMO safe to say. But I have strong doubts, that it's safe to say, that "It's basically an ODS clean side with reverb and an additional pair of tone controls after the reverb recovery. https://tubeamparchive.com/viewtopic.php?p=57018#57018

But, Greg, of course I respect your different personal opinion concerning this topic.

All the best,

Max

[vibratoking]

So I doubt, that Brandon’s statement was based on personal experience or detailed pictures: Someone who is familiar with an amp – at least from looking at some pictures - and knows its circuit details will IMO know if its a 100W or 150W amp.

And IMO one should take into account, too, that this thread is from 2008, a time when AFAIK Brandon still was collecting info concerning the different SSS versions. I doubt that he would repeat this statement today.

Max, I agree with your opinion. I posted the conflicting statements that were made concerning the recovery stage that the filters are connected to in order to highlight the situation.

To perhaps get an even better impression concerning how different the circuits of different members of the Dumleland /SSS family are, you could perhaps go through this procedure:

I fully understand that the family of circuits are different. But IMO it is highly likely that the amps in the family that use hi/lo filtering all have the filter connected to the same point in the circuit. I am asking if anyone has seen where the connection occurs? Or can provide a good argument about where the connection should be. I have seen several schematics on this site that were created in an attempt to represent an individual circuit from the family. The filters were not in the same place in those schematics. I am sure there are reasons derived from experiments and well-thought out reasoning that would make for a good discussion of the placement of the filters.[/quote]

Discussions like this IMO often concentrate too much on the subject how different circuit details affect the harmonic structure of the signal (amount of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics in the harmonic content etc.), because people think, that the dynamic structure does more or less only affect the "feel", "response" and "playing comfort" etc. of an amplifier. And IMO this approach doesn’t take into account, that the human hearing system perceives a different dynamic structure as a different kind of timbre, too.

It is possible that I do not understand what you exactly mean by harmonic and dynamic structure. But here are some comments based on what I think I understand you to mean.

I am not sure why you think we are only concentrated on harmonic structure, as you call it, and that somehow we are ignoring dynamic structure, as you call it? As an analog engineer, I am considering the frequency response or domain, the transient response/time domain, the phase relationship, etc... of the full circuit including the signal and the power supply. Of course, this is not a complete list, but merely an example of some things that I have under consideration. By the way, Fourier established a relationship between the frequency domain and the time domain approximately 200 years ago. These are not independent domains and the knowledge one domain allows you to have knowledge of the other through the transform. So, IMO, I don't think Joseph Fourier would agree that there is such vast difference between harmonic structure and dynamic structure as you call it. Or that it is possible to consider one and ignore the other.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform

[boldaslove6789]

Please excuse my amp slang (some technical terms seem to escape me), and I'll try to divulge what I can. Sorry, for my sake I can't give all the cookies away.

I also agree, from the SSS schematics and pics I've seen the Reverb gets taken off the tone stack and gets mixed in after the Filters.

Some Reverb circuits consisted of a Driver and Recover, some a Driver, Mixer, and Recover.

Step Filters are after the Tone stack.

[talbany]

Max
Do you by chance know which of the SSS you have played or know about have the internal trimmer and would you say in your IYO would you prefer such a control in your SSS.. One would think to have such a control over these various parameters would certainly be beneficial..Of coarse you would have to adjust this control after each V1 tube change


1) changes gain and by this the harmonics produced by V2 and by this the color of the tone and the sustain etc..
2) changes the Q-factor of the "resonance filter"
3) changes the corner or cutoff frequencies
4) changes the transient response time of the filter overall tone and sustain
5) changes to "independent" the high step and low step filters are in their influence on tone
6) changes the whole network more into the direction of a second order filter or into the direction of a first order filter

Tony

[Max]

As an analog engineer, I am considering the frequency response or domain, the transient response/time domain, the phase relationship, etc... of the full circuit including the signal and the power supply. Of course, this is not a complete list, but merely an example of some things that I have under consideration. By the way, Fourier established a relationship between the frequency domain and the time domain approximately 200 years ago. These are not independent domains and the knowledge one domain allows you to have knowledge of the other through the transform. So, IMO, I don't think Joseph Fourier would agree that there is such vast difference between harmonic structure and dynamic structure as you call it. Or that it is possible to consider one and ignore the other.

Please let me try to explain my personal opinion concerning this:

To perhaps better understand my personal opinion, I would like to ask you to read this at first now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre

Thank you.

OK, so "The timbre of a sound is also greatly affected by the following aspects of its envelope: attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients."

Now "timbre" is IMO the topic at The Amp Garage. So the threads related to the "timbre" topic are countless here. The general question: How can I make my amp to sound like Dumble ODS #xyz, or like the sound I hear in my head etc. This is IMO the question: How can I achieve a certain kind of "timbre"?

But if some member here asks one of these countless timbre related questions like:

"How can I get rid of some 'sharpness' in the timbre of my amp?"

the common answer is – at least in my subjective perception - to send certain frequencies to ground or to adjust the content of harmonics and overtones etc.

But right now I really can't remember one single example of an answer to such a kind of question like:

"If you want to get rid of some 'sharpness' in the timbre of your amp, then try to change its 'attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients'."

This is what I wanted to point to.

But of course my personal perception of most of the timbre related dicussions at The Amp Garage may be wrong and just a personal prejudice based on my lack of technical knowledge.

So if all here are fully aware that changing the "attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients" is an appropriate way to change the timbre of their amps, then please excuse me and just forget my post concerning this topic.

Do you by chance know which of the SSS you have played or know about have the internal trimmer and would you say in your IYO would you prefer such a control in your SSS..

Tony, AFAIR all the SSSs with an inductor I've played have a trim pot related to their filter circuits. But AFAIR there have been small differences between these trim pot circuits. AFAIR there have been versions with a trim pot that was "bridged" by a capacitor and other versions with a trim pot without such a "bridge" (I'm sorry for my non-tech-wording). And the values of these trim pots have differed, too - at least AFAIR. And AFAIR you'll meet these trim pots a bit more often in SSS with inductors than in Dumbleland Specials with inductors.

For my personal use I would prefer to have such a trimpot in a member of the Dumbleland/SSS family with an inductor. And - because of my personal taste - the family member I personally liked best wasn’t a SSS, but a "velvet glove" Dumbleland Special 150W with inductor and such a trim pot. This one could be adjusted from "brutal" and "nasty" to "glassy", and from there to "natural", and from there to "silvery" and "elegant" etc., and it definitely could be "overdriven", too - even without an FET input. But I admit, that I had some difficulties to make it sound "skinny".

Tony, please understand, that I don’t feel free to give away series numbers.

Have fun!

Max

[erwin_ve]

But right now I really can't remember one single example of an answer to such a kind of question like:

"If you want to get rid of some 'sharpness' in the timbre of your amp, then try to change its 'attack time and characteristics, decay, sustain, release (ADSR envelope) and transients'."

This is what I wanted to point to.

You have a valid point there.

I doubt if you don't have the tech knowledge Max. Your comment immediatly leads me towards LNFB But I'm complete ignorant on the SSS amp.