Solid wire vs Stranded?

[M Fowler]

Why connect perfectly fine tuned hook up wire to imperfect coupling caps and poor tolerenced resistors along with how the PT and OT interact.

Amp building is not a scientific study any longer at this point in time. It is old school electronics which just happens to amuse a few and provides perfect vibrating tones for our ears to enjoy.

Anymore then that, then you need to build with new technology available.

Mark

[Zippy]

Back to the topic: There may well be some influence of the insulation used on some varieties of solid core wire and their ability to lay flat against the chassis. I've often wondered if one can reliably measure the effective capacitance between conductor and chassis due to such lead dress. Of course, by the time one acknowledges the length of such conductors in key positions in the topology, one wonders if a few pico farad have any real effect in shaping the tone.

[bluesfendermanblues]

Back to the topic: There may well be some influence of the insulation used on some varieties of solid core wire and their ability to lay flat against the chassis. I've often wondered if one can reliably measure the effective capacitance between conductor and chassis due to such lead dress. Of course, by the time one acknowledges the length of such conductors in key positions in the topology, one wonders if a few pico farad have any real effect in shaping the tone.

When I built my first D-amp 3 years ago, I wasn't really aware of the importance of V1 and V2 lead dress - and was quite astonned by the difference and improvement in tone once the wires were close to the chassis - can you measure this?? probably not - and maybe the equation contains more elements than a matter of capacitance - maybe magnetic stray or other factors come into play.

[Cliff Schecht]

The closer the two plates of a capacitor are for a given area, the higher the capacitance. Pushing the wires up against the chassis will increase the capacitance, but as Zippy points out nobody has properly quantified this yet. I suspect it's only maybe 1-10 puff difference but at the same time, just 10 pF is enough to cause an audible effect.

[thyx]

Tell us about your thesis, thyx. Who was your advisor and what university did you attend?

Curious... You seem eager to discount everyone else and credit yourself with an education - what was your area of study?

I studied at Annapolis, and I do not discount anybody for what they've done in their particular fields...I just don't see how it applies unless they've studied something that directly pertains in particular to what is under discussion, which would put their knowledge above mine (on this particular point). I do not claim to be an expert in this field...just to have some working knowledge based on what is generally accepted in the scientific field.

I cannot believe that you could equate, in a previous post, turbulent flow of water or air with electron flow.

Believe what you like...but I see no value in arguing simply for the sake of arguing. Goodbye, Zippy.

[Zippy]

I studied at Annapolis, and I do not discount anybody for what they've done in their particular fields...I just don't see how it applies unless they've studied something that directly pertains in particular to what is under discussion, which would put their knowledge above mine (on this particular point...

Physics is the study of fundamental principles such as those in this thread.

You were the one to raise the issue of academic study, you are the one contesting the issue, and yet you are the one avoiding establishing your credibility. I question your ability to read a scientific or engineering paper and exercise the ability to question whether it has any merit. What is your field of expertise?

I have put forth a hypothesis to answer the issue raised in this thread. Have you anything of merit to add to the discussion?

[Ian444]

I reckon the advantage of stranded wire in that its more reliable in vibration environments is lost as soon as you terminate it with solder, since you are basically making the end of that stranded wire into a short "solid wire", which will be inclined to break at the junction of the strands and the solder. The half-activated flux at that junction does not help either. If there is some strain relief, like a short bit of heatshrink at that junction, then that will help a lot.

I don't care which I use, I use both, but what would I know.

It was interesting the other day, I kid you not, this electrician came into work to fit some AC outlets to a power unit that supplies electricity to a jet aircraft while said aircraft/s are getting maintenance done, saves having the aircraft's own auxilliary power generator running all the time. Anyway, the aircraft needs 115V at *400 Hz* not 50Hz (or 60Hz). The AC outlets to be fitted were so we could test aircraft toilet flush motors and small fan motors that are being overhauled in the workshop, they need the 115V 400Hz to run. So this electrician is going to fit an ELCB (RCD) to protect these outlets, but has a problem with the 400Hz vs 50Hz thing. Turned out that, instead of fitting the standard 10mA ELCB, because it was 400Hz, he needed to derate it to around 3mA due to "skin effect", in that the same wires will conduct more current at 400Hz than they will at 50Hz. He showed me the documentation from the ELCB manufacturer which included a derating chart for different frequencies. Doesn't sound right but this guy showed me the chart.

[Zippy]

1) The issue of having a stiff junction further exacerbates the issue of cold working a solid wire made of FCC metal - it work hardens rapidly and is more susceptible to failing in an embrittled mode. I don't think the analogy of a "short solid wire" holds true if a good joint is made.

2) I'd be curious to see that chart and the manufacturer's reason for derating. I used to be a "3-wire" electrician (3-phase, ungrounded) and worked with 400 hz navigation equipment in submarines. Without seeing your application, I'd posit that it is not a matter of skin effect as much as it is power and time concerns.

[Ian444]

It could be "power and time concerns" and not "skin effect". I just posted the info as how I saw it, and how it was explained to me. I saw the manufacturer's chart, so it was "something".

[rsalinger]

It seems as though I have inadvertently slipped and fallen through an internet wormhole vortex... whose negative neutrino gravitational-pull has dragged me through a ruptured, parallel bi-dimensional polar matrix (an elliptical tangent that bridges the anti-matter silex) to where the grey matter dissipates into an abysmal flash-tunnel. This momentum, as far as I can tell, infuses and imparts enough energy and negatively charged karma upon the plasma grid to power an inter-stellar, post-Boren, quark-suspended, serial Rube Goldberg Machine, from which I (along with other dejects) have been propelled, into the neutrally charged vacuum that we refer to as the time/space continuum (a crystal lattice where fragile harmonics survive). Upon emerging on the other side... lo and behold... I am surprised to be in... to be in... TGP.

TGP?!? Hey, wait a minute... Alice, I want my looking-glass back... and a boarding pass for the 4:20 Alfa train back to TAG. There's no place like home, there's no place like home...

Please excuse the rant.

PS.: I like solid core wire. Since I am a novice, I basically limit myself to copying (to the best of my ability, anyway) the lead dress presented in a gut shot and/or layout. This seems much more difficult (to me, at least), with stranded wire.

Cheers mates!
Rob

[Structo]

I have no trouble keeping the stranded Teflon wire where I put it when lead dressing.

Small nylon zip ties can also help when you have a bundle.

[thyx]

I have no trouble keeping the stranded Teflon wire where I put it when lead dressing.

Small nylon zip ties can also help when you have a bundle.

Yep...I use the zip-ties a lot. That's what helps with the "durability" issue somebody else brought up. As for positioning stranded wire, there are things you can do with solid-core you just can't with stranded...small loops and bends, and so forth. Then, coupled with the zip-ties, you can pretty much lock solid-core wiring into place. Sometimes you can do that with stranded...but sometimes you can't.

[talbany]

HiFi and audio engineers have been debating the differences in sonic quality between these two types of wires for years..Ken Fisher being one of them Many point out that braid-stranded wire is preferable due to its increased surface area and claim that higher frequencies are clearer as a result. Others argue that the larger number of strands create phase issues. Some claim the differences are negligible at the low power of electronics and inaudible. Although I will say one of the best sounding amps I've built so far has stranded wire in the preamp section..It's been Lou Toomey's (Brooks and Dunn) main amp going on 4 years now..

Tony

[bluesfendermanblues]

............. I will say one of the best sounding amps I've built so far has stranded wire in the preamp section..It's been Lou Toomey's (Brooks and Dunn) main amp going on 4 years now..Tony

What particular kind of wire did you use ? Type / brand /source? Apex jr maybe?

Regards Claus

[talbany]

............. I will say one of the best sounding amps I've built so far has stranded wire in the preamp section..It's been Lou Toomey's (Brooks and Dunn) main amp going on 4 years now..Tony

What particular kind of wire did you use ? Type / brand /source? Apex jr maybe?

Regards Claus

Claus
Sorry.. I can't give away all my work I will say try to get it solid silver plated copper..Don't mean to sound like a jerk!
Hope this Helps!!

Tony