PLAYED not one, but TWO nice Dumbles today!

[Mr Dumble]

Perhaps it's just a matter of personal taste.

Thats one possibility for sure. Another is maybe those sounded way better than the one I played, or the one you linked clips to.

Hi Mr Dumble,

IMO this isn't "another" possibility but just the same one, because "better" - in regard to the tone of an instrument or the look of girls or the features of cars or the best place to live or to spend the holidays and most other things in our personal life - IMO generally is a completely subjective concept and generally and always and ever a matter of personal taste.

And as far as I know one of the most important principles of modern western societies is that there is no major taste-court needed with judges who tell other people what is "good" or "bad" and what accordingly they should like and what they should dislike - as long as everyone who simply does what he likes best according to his personal taste doesn't step over the borders of the laws that are valid in the given society as being the result of a democratic procedure.

Cheers,

Max

Hi Max,


This is where we disagree. Most players I know of pretty much to a man, will agree on what sounds better when certain parameters are set. There are very, very few players, if any, who given the chance to play both amps side by side, would take one of those two early Dumbles over #183 or a good sounding later model. Anyone in the area can go play the two i spoke of, then play my TKT183 for a comparison. Simply a no brainer. The older models do nothing better. Price is not always a reflection of tone obviously, but in this cases, it clearly is.

[Max]

This is where we disagree. Most players I know of pretty much to a man, will agree on what sounds better when certain parameters are set.

Hi Mr Dumble,

Yes, this is where we indeed disagree. I am completely aware that many or even most people at a given time and in a given part of the public culture (gearheads as an example) may have a similar personal taste in such matters like the tone of musical instruments.

But IMO you nevertheless confuse the similar personal taste of a majority of people with some kind of objective "truth". IMO a similar personal taste of many is still subjective personal taste - and not some kind of objective "truth" - only because many share the same opinion.

And in regard to my own personal taste I indeed like Charly Bonat's guitar tone on these Elgam Collective tracks a lot and would personally not be much influenced in this personal opinion even if all the other 9000+ members here would tell me that they all dislike the guitar tone of these recordings with a 2nd generation Dumble ODS.

And don't take me wrong: I think it's great that your personal taste - and maybe the personal taste of all other players you know - is different from mine. I really prefer to live in a colorful world where's enough place for all kind of sounds from Albinoni to Zappa.

And I must admit that if I listen to music I am personally far far far more interested in its contents, in the stories composers and musicians have to tell than if someone has a great "tone". I don't like the voice or the "tone" of Maria Callas that much as an example but that does not distract me at all from being driven to tears by her interpretations, by the way she tells the stories.

What kind of equippement musicians use is simply something that I am not that much intersted in when listening to music and the main reasons why I like to use some Dumble amps are because
- at least some of them IMO don't mix up too much with the storytelling of the player and showcase and IMO make rather clear what she/he has to tell (or not) - and no matter what kind of story she/he wants to tell from Punk to Jazz
- IMO at least some of them are rather versatile and deliver all the kind of sounds and at any volume I am looking for and feel comfortable with
- I am used to them since 30 years and the way they want to be treated and by far prefer to play music - as an example - than to find out in music shops if I would perhaps love the newest XYZ boutique amp even better than the Dumble amp I currently use.
- I don't have to pay for them any longer because since many years a close friend of mine always has a bunch of them at hand that I can use for free.

Cheers,

Max

[CHIP]

Max,
I respect your opinions, while reading the latest posts by you and Tag this thought came to mind. In a Capitalistic economy the monetary winners are determined by the products that appeal to the most consumers.

HAD chose to individualize the product.
Fender,Marshall ect. chose to make money.

[Mr Dumble]

This is where we disagree. Most players I know of pretty much to a man, will agree on what sounds better when certain parameters are set.

Hi Mr Dumble,

Yes, this is where we indeed disagree. I am completely aware that many or even most people at a given time and in a given part of the public culture (gearheads as an example) may have a similar personal taste in such matters like the tone of musical instruments.

But IMO you nevertheless confuse the similar personal taste of a majority of people with some kind of objective "truth". IMO a similar personal taste of many is still subjective personal taste - and not some kind of objective "truth" - only because many share the same opinion.

And in regard to my own personal taste I indeed like Charly Bonat's guitar tone on these Elgam Collective tracks a lot and would personally not be much influenced in this personal opinion even if all the other 9000+ members here would tell me that they all dislike the guitar tone of these recordings with a 2nd generation Dumble ODS.

And don't take me wrong: I think it's great that your personal taste - and maybe the personal taste of all other players you know - is different from mine. I really prefer to live in a colorful world where's enough place for all kind of sounds from Albinoni to Zappa.

And I must admit that if I listen to music I am personally far far far more interested in its contents, in the stories composers and musicians have to tell than if someone has a great "tone". I don't like the voice or the "tone" of Maria Callas that much as an example but that does not distract me at all from being driven to tears by her interpretations, by the way she tells the stories.

What kind of equippement musicians use is simply something that I am not that much intersted in when listening to music and the main reasons why I like to use some Dumble amps are because
- at least some of them IMO don't mix up too much with the storytelling of the player and showcase and IMO make rather clear what she/he has to tell (or not) - and no matter what kind of story she/he wants to tell from Punk to Jazz
- IMO at least some of them are rather versatile and deliver all the kind of sounds and at any volume I am looking for and feel comfortable with
- I am used to them since 30 years and the way they want to be treated and by far prefer to play music - as an example - than to find out in music shops if I would perhaps love the newest XYZ boutique amp even better than the Dumble amp I currently use.
- I don't have to pay for them any longer because since many years a close friend of mine always has a bunch of them at hand that I can use for free.

Cheers,

Max

Hey Max,
No problems here. You seem to think that because some amps sound better than others, that prsonal taste is somehow thrown out the window. Not true at all. I truly believe that if you played the amps in question, you would also take 183 or a great sounding later build all other things (price condition etc) being equal. There are millions of different great tones to be had from a million different amps for sure. When put side by side however, some simply sound and work much better than others.

[Max]

When put side by side however, some simply sound and work much better than others.

No, IMO they only work and sound different and these differences then are perceived as being "better" or "worse" depending on the subjective personal taste of the person who makes this judgement.

Just one example for what I am talking about:

Many or even most guitar players in 1957 obviously had a personal taste according to which a 1957 Les Paul with PAFs wasn't one of the "best" guitars (sales records show this). Today the personal taste of many guitar players is of a kind that they judge a 1957 Les Paul with PAFs to be a "very good" guitar or even one of the "best" ever built.

If you study the history of the electric guitar you will notice a lot of these changes in the personal taste of guitar players and the corresponding changes in regard to how they judge the "quality" of different instruments.

Obviously guitar players are "fashion victims", too, just like the girls they date.

"Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them." David Hume's Essays, Moral and Political, 1742

Cheers,

Max

[talbany]

Obviously guitar players are "fashion victims", too, just like the girls they date.

+1 SO TRUE!!

Tony

[Mr Dumble]

When put side by side however, some simply sound and work much better than others.

No, IMO they only work and sound different and these differences then are perceived as being "better" or "worse" depending on the subjective personal taste of the person who makes this judgement.

Just one example for what I am talking about:

Many or even most guitar players in 1957 obviously had a personal taste according to which a 1957 Les Paul with PAFs wasn't one of the "best" guitars (sales records show this). Today the personal taste of many guitar players is of a kind that they judge a 1957 Les Paul with PAFs to be a "very good" guitar or even one of the "best" ever built.

If you study the history of the electric guitar you will notice a lot of these changes in the personal taste of guitar players and the corresponding changes in regard to how they judge the "quality" of different instruments.

Obviously guitar players are "fashion victims", too, just like the girls they date.

"Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them." David Hume's Essays, Moral and Political, 1742

Cheers,

Max

Hey Max,

I totally agree that when there are several amps (or guitars or Pups or whatever) that sound very close, its just a matter of personal taste. Throw something totally new and different at someone, (your LP example) and of course there is an adjustment period. That has nothing to do with what I am talking about however. Take a good BF Fender amp and put it next to an old Sears Solid State amp. Huge difference in tone. The Fender sounds far superior. Thats an extreme, sure, but there are many points in between. One of those being those old Dumbles I played vs 183 or other great sounding newer builds. Some things just sound way better than others to the human ear. Any ear. If you think "its all good", then I just have to respectfully disagree.

[talbany]

Some interesting SS info..

Eric Clapton's August Album used 2 Sessionette 75 SS amps
Also, Phil Keaggy has used solid state amps for many years, starting with the Yamaha G100, most recently I've seen him using a CyberTwin...

Lonnie Mack used Roland Jazz Chorus

Mike Stern uses Yamaha and Pearce amps, also all solid state.

Iron Maiden Somewhere in Time and 7th Son (Gallien Krueger Amps)

Billy Gibbons My Head's in Mississippi (Marshall Lead 12)

Ty Tabor - First 4 King's X Albums ( Lab Series L5/7)
BB King used Lab Series as well

Wes Montgomery later career (standel Super Custom XV)

Tom Petty - Known to use the Vox Super Beatle on many occasions

Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed, Beggar’s Banquet, Rock’n’Roll Circus (Triumph Silicon 100 also used VOX conqueror/Defiants on Rock'n'Roll Circus)

All that and you've heard the Roland JC-120 on countless recordings for clean sounds.

Page used the Rickenbacker Transonic (SS) for their 1st American tour in 1969. There is rumor that that amp was used for the Heartbreaker session as well. Led Zeppelin simply left these amplifiers behind on their trip back to England

Martin Barre (Jethro Tull) used Marshall 15-watt tube practice amps on Crest of a Knave and Rock Island, according to his website. Doesn't say which ones they were, though. Says he also used six of them live.

It's also rumored Eric Clapton used an old tweed champ on many recordings..

Randy Rhodes used a SS Pignose for a preamp into his Marshalls

AFAIK Billy Gibbons road rig has not 1 tube in his power amps

Jack Pearson used his Yamaha SS 100 and a sans amp on his do it right album and got some IMO very nice tones

I am sure many would consider some of these amps inferior tone generators

Tony

[CHIP]

Clapton used a Fender Champ when recording the Derek and the Dominos
session.
Joe Walsh used a Champ on Funk #49.

[Max]

Page used the Rickenbacker Transonic (SS) for their 1st American tour in 1969.

Yes, Tony, but see how disgusted he looks that he still has to wait for his TKT 183.

BTW: AFAIK Jack White, after per chance listening to some #183 clips he found links to when once looking for some Sears news at The Gear Page, right now is urgently trying to find out the phone number of Alexander Dumble to get a #183 mod for his Silvertone.

source for the Jimmy Page picture: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=713183

Have Fun!

Max

[talbany]

Yes, Tony, but see how disgusted he looks that he still has to wait for his TKT 183.

Your Killin me!!

BTW: AFAIK Jack White, after per chance listening to some #183 clips he found links to when once looking for some Sears news at The Gear Page, right now is urgently trying to find out the phone number of Alexander Dumble to get a #183 mod for his Silvertone.

I am a BIG JW fan and love his (un-modded) Sears mail order Silver-Tone....Tone.
I thought the shining star on It Might Get Loud..

BTW..In early 74 Chris Cross trades in a Strat he didn't care much for to a music store in South Austin known as Ray Hennig's Heart of Texas Music ..Later picked up by a young kid who turned it into one of the most iconic Strat's in history.. You guessed it SRV's #1
One man's pain is another's pleasure

Take Care!!

Tony

[Chris333]

Sorry for jacking the thread, but how's that 6L6 TKT coming along?

[Mr Dumble]

Some interesting SS info..

Eric Clapton's August Album used 2 Sessionette 75 SS amps
Also, Phil Keaggy has used solid state amps for many years, starting with the Yamaha G100, most recently I've seen him using a CyberTwin...

Lonnie Mack used Roland Jazz Chorus

Mike Stern uses Yamaha and Pearce amps, also all solid state.

Iron Maiden Somewhere in Time and 7th Son (Gallien Krueger Amps)

Billy Gibbons My Head's in Mississippi (Marshall Lead 12)

Ty Tabor - First 4 King's X Albums ( Lab Series L5/7)
BB King used Lab Series as well

Wes Montgomery later career (standel Super Custom XV)

Tom Petty - Known to use the Vox Super Beatle on many occasions

Rolling Stones - Let It Bleed, Beggar’s Banquet, Rock’n’Roll Circus (Triumph Silicon 100 also used VOX conqueror/Defiants on Rock'n'Roll Circus)

All that and you've heard the Roland JC-120 on countless recordings for clean sounds.

Page used the Rickenbacker Transonic (SS) for their 1st American tour in 1969. There is rumor that that amp was used for the Heartbreaker session as well. Led Zeppelin simply left these amplifiers behind on their trip back to England

Martin Barre (Jethro Tull) used Marshall 15-watt tube practice amps on Crest of a Knave and Rock Island, according to his website. Doesn't say which ones they were, though. Says he also used six of them live.

It's also rumored Eric Clapton used an old tweed champ on many recordings..

Randy Rhodes used a SS Pignose for a preamp into his Marshalls

AFAIK Billy Gibbons road rig has not 1 tube in his power amps

Jack Pearson used his Yamaha SS 100 and a sans amp on his do it right album and got some IMO very nice tones

I am sure many would consider some of these amps inferior tone generators

Tony

I dont see the amp I metioned, but in any case, your point is??? Do you think the above solid state amps have better clean tones than a BF Fender? Is your main amp a SS amp? Please be honest.

[Mr Dumble]

Sorry for jacking the thread, but how's that 6L6 TKT coming along?

On the truck and should be here Tuesday!


EDIT: And I GUARANTEE it will blow the shit out of those two old Dumbles.

[Max]

Sorry for jacking the thread, but how's that 6L6 TKT coming along?

On the truck and should be here Tuesday!


EDIT: And I GUARANTEE it will blow the shit out of those two old Dumbles.

Of course it will, as - at least IMO - it isn't really that probable that your personal taste in regard to what kind of guitar tone you like will change that much until Tuesday. So what you garantee is what I would call a self fulfilling prophecy.

But however: Much fun with your newest toy!

Cheers,

Max